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[I. CALL TO ORDER, CALL OF ROLL]
IS 6 0 1.UH, WE ARE BEGINNING THIS JOINT WORKSHOP OF CITY COUNCIL PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION, BOARD OF ADJUSTMENT, AND THE BUILDING AND STANDARDS COMMISSION.
I DO HAVE A QUORUM OF THE COUNCIL.
ALL MY COUNSELORS, EXCEPT MR. PRINCE ARE HERE.
AND AMANDA, UH, SORRY, AMANDA.
SHE'S GONNA BE HERE IN 10 MINUTES, SHE SAID.
UM, SO WITH THAT, I CAN GO TO PUBLIC COMMENTS 'CAUSE I BELIEVE I HAD ONE UNLESS, UH, IS THERE A QUORUM OF ANY OF THE COMMISSIONS YET? THERE IS NOT.
I THEN P AND Z, IF YOU COULD CALL YOURSELF TO ORDER, UM, WE'LL BRING THE MIC UP OVER HERE.
AND WHAT DO I SAY?
UM, AND I CALL PLANNING ZONING COMMISSION, UH, TO ORDER.
UH, WE HAVE A QUORUM HERE TONIGHT.
JEFF HUGELEY, UM, ENRIQUE LOPEZ AND JEAN HARRIS.
AND WITH THAT, UH, I WILL GO TO PUBLIC COMMENTS.
AND I HAD, UH, MR. PAUL ROBERTS.
MR. ROBERTS, ARE YOU, DO YOU HEAR US? SORRY, WE'RE MUTED.
NOW HE SHOULD BE ABLE TO HEAR US.
ALL RIGHT, MR. ROBERTS, CAN YOU HEAR US ALL RIGHT.
WELL, WE'RE OPENING UP TO PUBLIC COMMENTS.
DID YOU HAVE PUBLIC COMMENTS? OH, YES, SIR, I DID.
UM, UH, MAYOR ACCOUNTS COMMISSIONERS.
AND MR. BULLOCK, IS BRAD THERE? I CAN'T TELL.
UM, SINCE TONIGHT'S WORKSHOP IS ABOUT ROLE, SCOPE OF AUTHORITY, OPEN MEETINGS, ETHICS, AND RULES OF PROCEDURE, I HAVE A FEW PRACTICAL QUESTIONS I HOPE MR. BULLOCK CAN ADDRESS, UH, THIS EVENING.
FIRST, COULD YOU CLARIFY THE LEGAL RISKS OF LIMITING, INTERRUPTING OR CUTTING OFF A MEMBER OF THE PUBLIC WHO IS CRITICIZING THE REASONING PROCEDURE, CONDUCT, OR COMMENTS OF A COUNCIL MEMBER, COMMISSIONER CHAIR, OR A LIAISON? MY UNDERSTANDING IS THAT REASONABLE DECORUM RULES ARE ALLOWED, BUT THEY CANNOT BE USED AS A BACKDOOR WAY TO PROHIBIT CRITICISM OF OFFICIAL CONDUCT OR PROCEDURE.
SECOND, WHO CONTROLS THE FLORIDA COUNCIL OR COMMISSION MEETING? IF STAFF, A COUNCIL LIAISON, OR ANOTHER OFFICIAL SPEAKS WITHOUT BEING RECOGNIZED BY THE CHAIR, IS THAT PERSON OUT OF ORDER? AND IF SOMEONE RAISES A POINT OF ORDER, WHO ACTUALLY RULES ON IT? THE CHAIR, THE LIAISON STAFF, OR SOMEONE ELSE? THIRD, WHAT IS THE PROPER ROLE OF A COUNCIL LIAISON AT A COMMISSION MEETING? WHEN DOES A LIAISON CROSS THE LINE FOR PROVIDING FACTUAL INFORMATION OR PROCEDURAL SUPPORT INTO OFFERING PERSONAL OPINIONS OR COMMENTARY THAT COULD INFLUENCE THE COMMISSION'S RECOMMENDATION OR DECISION? FOURTH, ON SUBCOMMITTEES, MY UNDERSTANDING IS THAT A COUNCIL OR COMMISSION SUBCOMMITTEE MAY ITSELF BECOME SUBJECT TO THE OPEN MEETINGS ACT WHEN IT IS PREPARING WORK, PRODUCT OR RECOMMENDATIONS FOR THE PARENT BODY, IN PARTICULAR UNDER OUR NEW RULES OF PROCEDURE.
COULD YOU CLARIFY WHEN A SUBCOMMITTEE MUST MEET PUBLICLY? AND WITH NOTICE RELATED TO THAT, IF MEMBERS POST SUBSTANTIVE POSITIONS ON A CITY AUTHORIZED DISCUSSION BOARD, CAN A SUBCOMMITTEE THEN MEET PRIVATELY BEFORE THE PUBLIC MEETING TO DECIDE WHO, HOW TO REBUT THOSE POSITIONS? ASSIGN WHO WILL RESPOND AND COORDINATE TOWARD A DESIRED OUTCOME.
OR DOES THAT RISK BECOMING AN UNPOSTED MEETING OR PROHIBITED SERIAL DELIBERATION? FIFTH, COULD YOU EXPLAIN THE POTENTIAL CONSEQUENCES BOTH FOR THE CITY AND FOR THE INDIVIDUAL OFFICIAL IF PUBLIC COMMENT RIGHTS ARE INFRINGED? IF MEETING RULES ARE SELECTIVELY ENFORCED, OR IF SOMEONE WITHOUT AUTHORITY EFFECTIVELY POLICES PUBLIC COMMENT? FINALLY, I SENT MATERIALS TO CITY COUNCIL YESTERDAY THAT MAY INCLUDE OR RELY ON ATTORNEY-CLIENT PRIVILEGE TO LEGAL ANALYSIS FROM A FORMER CITY ATTORNEY, IF LEGALLY APPROPRIATE.
AND WITHOUT WAIVING ANY PRIVILEGE, CAN THOSE MATERIALS BE SHARED WITH PNZ? AND WOULD YOU PLEASE FORWARD
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THEM OR PROVIDE EQUIVALENT GUIDANCE TO THE COMMISSIONERS? I'M NOT ASKING FOR COMMENTARY ON ANY SPECIFIC PERSON TONIGHT.I'M ASKING BECAUSE THESE SITUATIONS ARE AFFORDABLE IF EVERYONE UNDERSTANDS THE RULES BEFORE THEY BECOME A PROBLEM.
ARE THERE ANY OTHER PUBLIC COMMENTS AT THIS TIME? HEARING NONE.
[II. WORK SESSION]
TO ITEM TWO, THE WORK SESSION, JOINT WORK SESSION REGARDING BEST PRACTICES AND APPLICABLE STATE LAW RELATED TO ROLE AND SCOPE OF AUTHORITY OF PLANNING AND ZONING, COMMISSIONS, BOARDS OF ADJUSTMENT, BUILDING AND STANDARDS, AND CITY COUNCIL, INCLUDING OPEN MEETINGS, REQUIREMENTS, ETHICAL CONSIDERATIONS, AND RECENT UPDATES TO THE CITY'S RULES AND PROCEDURES PRESENTED BY MR. FORD.AND I WILL TURN IT OVER TO, UH, BRAD.
UM, I DON'T, I DON'T HAVE A PREFERENCE AS TO THE ORDER IN WHICH WE DO THESE.
UM, SO CH I MEAN, IF YOU DO, YOU, YOU ALL TELL ME WHICH, WHICH ORDER OTHERWISE, I MEAN, I CAN START OFF WITH THE ONE THAT'S ON THE SCREEN RIGHT NOW, WHICH IS P AND Z.
UM, BUT THE, THE ORDER OF THE PRESENTATIONS HADN'T REALLY BEEN DISCUSSED OR DECIDED.
SO I'M, I'M, IT DOESN'T MATTER TO ME, COUNSEL, DOES IT MATTER TO Y'ALL? OKAY.
WELL THEN WE'LL JUST, WE'LL START WITH, UH, PLANNING AND ZONING, AND WE'LL SEE WHICH WAY I POINT THIS THING TOWARDS THIS, TOWARDS THIS THING.
I KNOW IT'LL WORK FROM THIS IF I SIT DOWN HERE.
OKAY, SO WE'RE GONNA GO OVER THE PLANNING AND ZONING ORIENTATION.
WHAT IS A PNZ? WHAT IS YOUR ENABLING LEGISLATION AND MEETING PROCEDURES? THERE WE GO.
UM, UH, PART OF PLANNING AND ZONING IS TO, UM, YOU KNOW, ADDRESS HOW A CITY OPERATES ITS LAND USE REGULATIONS.
YOU ARE THE FIRST, UM, UH, ENTITY THAT REVIEWS THAT AND MOVES FORWARD WITH, YOU KNOW, RECOMMENDATIONS TO THE BODY.
NOW, WHAT, WHAT IS PLANNING AND ZONING MORE BROADLY? NOT JUST THE COMMISSION? UH, ALL MUNICIPAL POWER, UM, IS PURSUANT TO THE PROMOTION OF THE PUBLIC HEALTH, SAFETY, WELFARE, AND MORALS, UH, AND PROTECTING AND PRESERVING AREAS OF HISTORICAL, CULTURAL, ARCHITECTURAL IMPORTANT SIGNIFICANCE.
UM, THERE ARE A VARIETY OF PERMISSIBLE, UM, UH, OBJECTIVES THAT, THAT ZONING AND PLANNING CAN ACHIEVE AND CAN ATTEMPT TO PROMOTE.
THOSE INCLUDE LESSENING CONGESTION OF STREETS, LESSENING, UH, UH, DENSITY OF, OF, UH, YOU KNOW, OF DEVELOPMENT, UM, UH, QUIET, PEACEFUL NEIGHBORHOODS.
UM, UH, ALSO THE PROMOTION OF PROPERTY VALUES.
UM, AND, AND, AND IN THE SEPARATION OF INCOMPATIBLE USES, JUST BROADLY SPEAKING, THOSE ARE THE TYPES OF GOALS THAT, UM, THAT, THAT ZONING IS SUPPOSED TO MAY ACHIEVE.
UH, P AND ZS ARE ADVISORY BODIES.
THEY HOLD PUBLIC HEARINGS, UH, AND THEY MAKE ADVISORY DECISIONS THAT THEY PROVIDE TO, UH, CITY COUNCIL.
AND OF COURSE, THEY'RE SUBJECT TO THE OPEN MEETINGS ACT.
UM, JUST VERY BRIEFLY, ZONING IS THE EXERCISE OF POLICE POWER, LIKE I SAID, TO PROTECT THE HEALTH, SAFETY, WELFARE OF MORALS.
THIS WAS, UH, THE, THE EUCLID CASE IS THE UNITED STATES SUPREME COURT CASE THAT FIRST RECOGNIZED THE MUNICIPAL POWER OF ZONING.
UH, IT WAS, IT WAS CHALLENGED.
UH, IT WAS A, A EUCLID, I BELIEVE, WAS A CITY IN OHIO, UM, THAT, UM, THAT ATTEMPTED TO ESTABLISH ZONING.
IT WAS ITS AUTHORITY TO DO SO, WAS CHALLENGED.
AND IN 1926, THE SUPREME COURT SAID THAT THAT IS A VALID EXERCISE OF THE POLICE POWER, UM, IN TEXAS.
UM, NOT LONG AFTER, UH, CITIES BEGAN, UH, HAD BEEN.
AND, AND IT PROLIFERATED, UH, THE EXERCISE OF ZONING POWER.
OF COURSE, IT WAS CHALLENGED IN, UH, TEXAS.
AND THE LOMBARDO CASE IS THE TEXAS SUPREME COURT CASE THAT RECOGNIZED, UH, ZONING, UH, IT PROPERTIES HELD SUBJECT TO THE POLICE POWER.
PROPERTY ZONING REGULATIONS ARE NOT TAKINGS FOR WHICH COMPENSATION IS AVAILABLE.
AND ULTIMATELY, UM, THE ZONING AUTHORITY WAS CODIFIED IN CHAPTER TWO 11 OF THE TEXAS LOCAL GOVERNMENT CODE.
SO, LOCAL GOVERNMENT CODE ESTABLISHES THE AUTHORITY TO CREATE P AND PZS.
UM, AND IN YOUR CODE OF ORDINANCES, THAT IS ARTICLE 9.18, WHERE THEY ARE CREATED, UM, WHAT IS THE PURPOSE OF ZONING?
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AGAIN, YOU'RE GONNA HEAR THIS MULTIPLE TIMES THROUGHOUT THE NIGHT.UH, BUT IT, BUT IT IS THE POLICE POWER, AND IT IS THE PROMOTION OF, UH, HEALTH SAFETY, WELFARE MALLS.
SO THAT SHOULD ALWAYS BE FOREMOST IN YOUR MIND WHEN YOU ARE CONSIDERING WHETHER OR NOT, UM, YOU KNOW, WHAT, WHAT SORT OF A DECISION OR RECOMMENDATION TO MAKE, UH, TO THE COUNCIL.
AND, AND AS LONG AS THAT IS THE, THE PRIMARY PURPOSE OF, OF WHATEVER THAT DECLARATION OR RECOMMENDATION IS, THEN YOU'RE STANDING, YOU'RE, YOU'RE STANDING ON SOLID LEGAL GROUND FROM THAT ASPECT.
AND BY THE WAY, I'M, I'M GOING, IF, IF I GO THROUGH ANY OF THESE TOO QUICKLY OR ANYBODY HAS A QUESTION OR ANYTHING, PLEASE FEEL FREE TO, WE DON'T HAVE TO WAIT TILL THE END FOR QUESTIONS.
UM, JUST, YOU KNOW, RAISE YOUR HAND, THROW SOMETHING AT ME, JUST, YOU KNOW, GET MY ATTENTION AND, AND, UM, HAPPY TO ANSWER QUESTIONS AS WE GO.
UM, WHAT CAN ZONING REGULATE? AND THIS LIST IS AN IMPORTANT LIST, UM, BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, THIS IS WHAT DIFFERENTIATES THE AUTHORITY TO ZONE, WHICH YOU MAY DO WITHIN YOUR MUNICIPAL LIMITS.
AND THESE ARE THE THINGS YOU MAY NOT REGULATE IN YOUR ETJ STATE LAW SPECIFICALLY PROHIBITS THE REGULATION OF THESE THINGS IN YOUR ETJ.
UM, AND SO ZONING IS EXCLUSIVELY LIMITED TO WITHIN YOUR CITY LIMITS.
UM, AND SO IT'S HEIGHT NUMBER STORIES, IT'S THE PERCENTAGE OF A LOT THAT CAN BE OCCUPIED.
THAT'S LIKE YOUR SETBACKS, UM, YARD, THE SIZE OF YOUR YARDS AND YOUR OPEN SPACE IS POPULATION DENSITY, THE USES OF STRUCTURES, UM, AND OF COURSE, HISTORICAL CULTURAL ARCHITECTURAL SIGNIFICANCE.
AND HOME RURAL CITIES LIKE LAGO VISTA CAN REGULATE THE BULK OF BUILDINGS.
UH, AND SO THAT'S ANOTHER METHOD OF RE OF REGULATING BOTH DENSITY AND COVERAGE ON A LOT.
JUST TO MAKE SURE, 'CAUSE I MIGHT NOT BE THE ONLY ONE.
WHEN YOU SAY I CAN MAKE GUESSES, BUT WHEN YOU SAY HOME RULE, CITIES MAY ALSO REGULATE THE BULK OF THE BUILDINGS.
SO WHAT DOES THE BULK OF BUILDINGS REFER TO? IT REFERS TO, UM, BOTH THEIR FOOTPRINT AND THEIR HEIGHT, THE VOLUME OF A BUILDING, RIGHT? AND SO THAT'S, THAT, THAT IS WHAT ALLOWS YOU TO, TO REGULATE.
UM, IT, IT, SOME OF THESE ARE OVERLAPPING.
SO FOR EXAMPLE, REGULATING THE SIZE OF YARDS.
IF YOU REGULATE THE SIZE OF A YARD, THAT'S A SETBACK.
SO WITHIN THAT SETBACK, IF YOU CAN'T BUILD WITHIN A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF SETBACK, THEN THAT NECESSARILY LIMITS, RIGHT? THE BULK.
BUT ALSO, UM, UM, YOU KNOW, THE LEGISLATURE EXPRESSLY AUTHORIZED HOME RULES TO REGULATE BULK.
AND SO, BUT SO SETBACKS, WHAT THEY DON'T REGULATE IS HEIGHT.
SO BULK WOULD REGULATE HEIGHT.
UM, AND, AND, AND IN ADDITION TO HEIGHT, UM, YOU KNOW, IT TIES INTO OCCUPANCY LOADS.
IT TIES INTO, UM, UH, YOU KNOW, A VARIETY OF THINGS.
UH, YOU KNOW, HOW, HOW BIG IS A STORY, UH, AND SO FORTH.
AND SOME OF THOSE THINGS ARE GOVERNED BY INTERNATIONAL OR NATIONAL CODES AS WELL, UH, NATIONAL BUILDING CODES.
BUT, BUT AGAIN, THAT WAS THE LEGISLATURE'S DECISION TO CALL IT THE BULK OF A BUILDING.
SO, UH, ZONING IS TYPICALLY OPERATED OR DIVIDED UP INTO DISTRICTS.
UM, AND CITIES CAN DIVIDE THEM INTO ANY NUMBER OF SHAPES AND SIZES AND, UH, DESIGNATIONS.
UM, THE, UH, IDEA BEHIND, UH, DIVIDING THEM INTO DIFFERENT DESIGNATIONS IS IN, IN THE SUPREME COURT CASE THAT RECOGNIZE THE EUCLID CASE, THAT RECOGNIZES THE POWER TO ZONE.
WHAT, WHAT, WHAT THE, THE, THE JUSTICE WHO WROTE THE, THE OPINION SAID IT'S, UH, IT IS THE CITY'S WITHIN THE CITY'S AUTHORITY TO PROHIBIT THE PIG IN THE PARLOR.
AND WHAT THEY MEANT WAS, CAN, YOU KNOW, IN THAT PARTICULAR CASE, IT WAS A, UM, A, A RENDERING PLANT, NOISY, SMELLY, UM, ALL OF THESE THINGS THAT, THAT PEOPLE IN PERHAPS A RESIDENTIAL NEIGHBORHOOD, DON'T WANT TO, YOU KNOW, THESE ARE INAPPROPRIATE USES TO BE, YOU KNOW, RIGHT NEXT TO EACH OTHER.
AND SO IT'S APPROPRIATE TO SEPARATE, INCOMPATIBLE USES FROM EACH OTHER, AND TO GROUP THEM IN AREAS WHERE IT MAKES SENSE WITHIN THE LEGISLATIVE DISCRETION TO, YOU KNOW, PLACE THESE DIFFERENT KINDS OF USES.
UM, AND SO, YOU KNOW, THE TYPES OF REGULATIONS YOU ADOPT MAY RE MAY VARY FROM DISTRICT TO DISTRICT, BUT, UM, UH, YOU KNOW, IT IS, IT IS WHAT IS THE SUITABILITY OF THE USES THAT YOU ARE, UH, PROPOSING FOR THESE DISTRICTS.
AND, UH, AND WITHIN THAT, UH, ENCOURAGE THE
[00:15:01]
MOST APPROPRIATE USE OF LAND.AND SO CITIES ARE NOT GUARANTORS OF THE, UM, I GUESS, FINANCIAL VIABILITY OF ANY PARTICULAR DEVELOPMENT OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT.
BUT BY THAT SAME TOKEN, UM, UH, YOU KNOW, ZONING, ZONING CLASSIFICATIONS AND, AND DISTRICTS SHOULD BE COMPLIMENTARY TO EACH OTHER AND SHOULD FLOW FROM ONE TO THE OTHER.
FROM GENERALLY SPEAKING, YOU KNOW, LESS INTENSIVE USES TO MORE INTENSIVE USES.
AND, AND, AND THE STEPS IN BETWEEN.
THAT'S THE IDEA, IS TO HAVE THEM KIND OF GRADUATE UP OR DOWN, DEPENDING UPON WHERE THEY'RE LOCATED, WHICH CAN BE A VARIETY, YOU KNOW, BASED ON A VARIETY OF FACTORS.
AND SOME OF THAT'S GONNA BE BEYOND YOUR CONTROL.
UH, FOR A CITY THAT GROWS UP AROUND A, A RAILROAD, YOU KNOW, THE, THE CENTER OF THE, THE, THE CITY OF THE CITY MAY BE THE MOST APPROPRIATE PLACE FOR INDUSTRIAL USES BECAUSE IT'S CLOSE TO A RAILROAD, RIGHT? OR A RIVER, OR WHAT HAVE YOU.
IT JUST, YOU KNOW, UH, BECAUSE THOSE ARE, THOSE ARE, UH, AREAS OF GREAT TRANSIT.
AND SO, YOU KNOW, ARE, ARE YOU, ARE YOU RIGHT ON A HIGHWAY? THOSE TYPES OF THINGS.
UM, SO IT, IT VERY, IT'S OBVIOUSLY GONNA VARY FROM CITY TO CITY.
UM, SO YOU HAVE A BUNCH OF SLIDES THAT AREN'T IN THE MAIN DECK THAT I PULLED OFF.
SO WOULD IT BE POSSIBLE FOR US TO GET THE FULL, COMPLETE DECK AFTER YEAH.
UM, WAIT, HE SENT A NEW UPDATED ONE YESTERDAY? I THINK IT WAS, YES.
UM, I DON'T KNOW WHICH ONE DO WE KNOW WHICH ONE IS THIS ONE IS THE ORIGINAL? THE UPDATED IS THE UPDATED, OKAY.
SO YOU'RE GONNA SEE THE UPDATED ONE, UM, HERE.
SO PDDS, UM, AND CONDITIONAL USE PERMITS ARE ALSO, UM, UH, ELEMENTS OF, OF ZONING DISTRICTS THAT YOU CAN, YOU CAN EMPLOY, UM, YOU KNOW, A PDD.
THE IDEA BEHIND A PDD IS NOT TO, UM, FUNDAMENTALLY ALTER BASE ZONING.
THE IDEA BEHIND A PDD IS TO ACCOUNT FOR THE, UH, THE, THE PARTICULAR CHARACTERISTICS OF EITHER THE, THE DEVELOPMENT IN QUESTION, UH, THE PARCEL IN QUESTION, AND SO FORTH.
AND, AND, AND TO ADDRESS SORT OF ZONING AT THE EDGES OF, OF WHAT YOU KNOW YOU'RE REGULATING AS OPPOSED TO A FUNDAMENTAL CHANGE IN, YOU KNOW, UH, YOU KNOW, LARGE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN A PDD AND WHAT THE BASE ZONING WOULD BE.
THAT'S NOT REALLY THE PURPOSE OF A PDD.
AND IF YOU STRAY TOO FAR AFIELD, UH, IN, IN, IN WHAT YOU IN ENCOMPASS WITHIN A PDD, UM, YOU CAN GET INTO TROUBLE.
BUT THE, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT PDDS, THEY ARE A MORE RECENT INVENTION, UH, CONVENTION AND ZONING, AND, AND MOST OFTEN THEY ARE USED TO, UH, AGAIN, BECAUSE WE TALK ABOUT THE SEPARATION OF DIFFERENT USES.
SO YOU HAVE COMMERCIAL OVER HERE, AND YOU HAVE RESIDENTIAL OVER HERE.
WELL, IN, IN MORE URBANIZING AREAS, THOSE TYPES OF USES ARE BECOMING MORE AND MORE COMPATIBLE WITH EACH OTHER.
YOU HAVE, YOU KNOW, FIRST LEVEL COMMERCIAL AND YOU HAVE CONDOS ABOVE IT AND THAT KIND OF STUFF.
AND SO, UM, THAT'S JUST ONE EXAMPLE.
OBVIOUSLY YOU CAN USE PDDS FOR OTHER PURPOSES, BUT, BUT IT IS THE MIXING OF USES THAT WOULD OTHERWISE PERHAPS BE IN SEPARATE ZONING DISTRICTS.
UM, DO WE NEED TO CALL OUT THAT THERE'S A FIFTH PNZ MEMBER VIEWING REMOTELY.
UH, I MAKE SURE WE DON'T RUN A PALLET OF ANY LONGER.
WE, YOU, YOU, YOU'VE ALREADY GOT A QUORUM THAT'S BEEN CALLED INTO YOU.
WE CAN MAKE NOTE OF IT FOR THE MINUTES.
NOTE THAT COUNCIL SHOPPER IS ALSO HERE NOW.
UM, AND CONDITIONAL USE PERMITS, THOSE ARE ANOTHER MECHANISM WHICH, UH, GIVES THE CITY THE AUTHORITY TO FURTHER CONTROL WHAT GOES IN A DISTRICT, RIGHT? ZONING DISTRICTS, YOU CAN HAVE THINGS THAT ARE, THAT YOU CAN DO AS A MATTER OF, RIGHT? AND THEN YOU CAN HAVE, UH, ASPECTS OF IT THAT REQUIRE CUP, THAT REQUIRES, YOU KNOW, THE APPLICANT TO COME TO COUNCIL AND, AND FOR THAT PARTICULAR USE TO BE APPROVED.
AND, AND THOSE CAN, THOSE CAN VARY.
UM, YOU KNOW, SOMETIMES IT'S THINGS THAT ARE, UM, I'VE SEEN, I'VE SEEN CS, FOR EXAMPLE, FOR DRIVE THROUGH CAR WASHES AND BECAUSE OF HIGHER, YOU KNOW, WATER USAGE AND THINGS LIKE THAT.
SO THERE ARE ADDITIONAL FACTORS THAT MIGHT GO INTO WHETHER OR NOT YOU WANT TO, TO ALLOW A CERTAIN USE.
AND, AND YOU MAY NOT BECAUSE OF ITS PROXIMITY, YOU KNOW, TO, TO THE ROADWAY OR, YOU KNOW, WHATEVER THE CASE MAY BE.
THERE'S A VARIETY OF THINGS THAT, THAT, THAT YOU HAVE A LARGE AMOUNT OF DISCRETION TO, UH, EMPLOY THE CONDITIONAL USE PERMIT, BUT IT HAS TO BE ALL APPROVED, YOU KNOW, KIND OF UNIFORMLY AS WELL, IF IT'S GONNA BE APPROVED.
UM, OKAY, SO WHAT IS THE COMPREHENSIVE PLAN? CITIES MAY ADOPT COMPREHENSIVE PLANS, UM, AND THE COMPREHENSIVE PLAN MUST BE DESIGNED TO DO ALL OF THE THINGS THAT THAT ZONING IS SUPPOSED TO DO.
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PLANS ARE NOT ZONING.THEY DO NOT CONTROL, THEY ARE NOT THE REGULATIONS THEMSELVES.
UM, BUT CONVERSELY, YOUR ZONING MUST COMPLY.
IF YOU HAVE A COMPREHENSIVE PLAN AND YOU DO, YOUR ZONING MUST COMPLY WITH IT.
COMPREHENSIVE PLANS MUST BE PERIODICALLY UPDATED, AND THEY ARE DESIGNED TO DO THESE THINGS, LESSEN CONGESTION, SECURE SAFETY, PROMOTE HEALTH, PROVIDE ADEQUATE AIR AND LIGHT, PREVENT OVERCROWDING, AVOID UNDUE CONCENTRATION OF POPULATION, AND F FACILITATE ADEQUATE PROVISION OF TRANSPORTATION AND SO FORTH.
UM, SO, UM, YOU ARE GOING, YOU KNOW, YOU'VE, YOU'VE GONE THROUGH THE COMPREHENSIVE PLAN PROCESS.
YOU'RE GOING THROUGH IT AGAIN.
UM, UH, THEY HAVE TO BE UPDATED, UM, YOU KNOW, PERIODICALLY.
AND, AND THAT IS TO ACCOUNT FOR, UH, COMPREHENSIVE PLANS OR WHAT YOU THINK IS GONNA HAPPEN OR WHAT YOUR, YOUR, YOUR VISION IS FOR THE FUTURE.
BUT THEN THAT'S, THAT'S ULTIMATELY, UM, DRIVEN BY ACTUAL DEVELOPMENT.
AND SO, YOU KNOW, THAT, THAT YOU, YOU HAVE SOME CONTROL OVER IT.
BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY, CITIES ARE NOT DEVELOPERS THEMSELVES.
THEY'RE THE, THEY'RE THE GOVERNMENTAL ENTITY.
UM, COMPREHENSIVE PLANS CAN HAVE MULTIPLE ASPECTS TO THEM.
LAND USE, TRANSPORTATION, PARKS AND OPEN SPACES, HOUSING AND PUBLIC FACILITIES.
AND THEY ARE JUST YOUR WRITTEN POLICIES AND GOALS OF THE CITY.
UM, AGAIN, THEY ARE NOT ZONING.
THEY DON'T, UM, THEY ARE NOT REGULATIONS.
THEY HAVE BEEN CHALLENGED IN THE PAST WHEN CITIES HAVE ADOPTED COMPREHENSIVE PLANS THAT, FOR EXAMPLE, OR, OR A NEW TRANSPORTATION PLAN THAT IDENTIFIED THIS NEW THOROUGHFARE THAT A CITY WANTED.
UM, A PROPERTY OWNER CHALLENGED THAT AS A, AS A TAKING.
UM, AND THE COURT SAID, NOPE, IT'S JUST A PLAN.
AND THAT DOES NOT CONSTITUTE A TAKING.
SO, UM, SO, YOU KNOW, WHATEVER IT IS, UH, WHATEVER IT IS THAT YOU ADOPT IS YOUR COMPREHENSIVE PLAN.
THEY CAN CHANGE THEIR GOALS, AND THAT'S WHAT THEY'RE, BUT AGAIN, ANY ZONING, A REZONING, A ZONING YOU ADOPT MUST COMPLY WITH THE COMPREHENSIVE PLAN, IN EFFECT AT THE TIME OF THAT ZONING OR REZONING.
IF IT DOESN'T, IF THAT ZONING DOES NOT, THEN THAT ZONING IS VOID.
MAY I ASK ANOTHER QUESTION? YES, SIR.
I JUST WANT CONFIRM WHAT I HEARD.
I BELIEVE I HEARD THAT, UH, DEVELOPMENT DRIVES THE COMPREHENSIVE PLAN.
WELL, I BELIEVE THE CITIES CREATE THE COMPREHENSIVE PLAN AND YOUR COMPREHENSIVE PLAN THAT YOU ADOPTED 25 YEARS AGO, THE DEVELOPMENT MAY OR MAY NOT HAVE DEVELOPED.
THE, THE CITY MAY OR MAY NOT HAVE DEVELOPED THE WAY YOU ENVISIONED IT OR THE, WHAT YOU ANTICIPATED 20 YEARS AGO.
SO IT DOESN'T DRIVE THE CONFERENCE PLAN, BUT YOU HAVE TO ACCOUNT FOR THE REALITY ON THE GROUND AS WELL, RIGHT? I MEAN, THAT I AGREE.
I'M JUST COMMENTING ON WHAT, WHAT I BELIEVE I HEARD.
THAT'S WHY I HAD THE QUESTION.
YEAH, IT'S, IT'S, IT DOESN'T DRIVE THE COMPREHENSIVE PLAN IT, BUT, BUT, BUT WHAT IT DOES DO IS THAT IT INFORMS THE COMPREHENSIVE PLAN AS YOU GO ALONG, RIGHT? I MEAN, IF, IF YOU HAD ENVISIONED THIS AREA OF THE CITY BEING INDUSTRIAL, AND IT TURNED OUT NOT TO BE, WELL, WHEN IT COMES TIME TO, UH, YOU KNOW, UH, REVISE YOUR COMPREHENSIVE PLAN, ACCOUNTING FOR WHAT IS ON THE GROUND IS IMPORTANT, OKAY? YOU KNOW, SO THEY, THEY WORK IN TANDEM.
ONE DOES NOT, YOU KNOW, THE, THE CITY CANNOT ULTIMATELY CONTROL.
UM, IT'S NOT A ZONING DOCUMENT.
YOU KNOW, IT DOESN'T PROHIBIT SOMETHING FROM GOING IN THERE.
BUT IF, IF A REZONING, UM, WOULD NOT COMPLY WITH THE ESTE WITH THE CONFERENCE PLAN, IN EFFECT AT THE TIME, THEN YOU'VE GOT TWO STEPS YOU NEED TO AMEND.
YOU KNOW, THAT DEVELOPER, WHOEVER YOU, THEY'D HAVE TO COME IN AND ASK, ASK THE CITY TO AMEND THE COMPREHENSIVE PLAN TO ALLOW THIS THING, WHICH IS, WHICH WOULD BE ZONED X, WHICH WOULD NOT COMPLY WITH THE CURRENT COMPREHENSIVE PLAN.
SO THOSE THINGS WOULD HAVE TO HAPPEN IN TANDEM.
UM, AGAIN, SO THESE ARE JUST SOME OF THE PROCEDURES THAT HAVE TO GO, YOU KNOW, GO OUT AND, AND, UH, THESE ARE, YOU KNOW, THE DEADLINES, UH, AND OF COURSE THE CITY HAS SOME ADDITIONAL, WHAT YOU MAY DO IN, IN YOUR ORDINANCES, BUT THIS IS JUST, THESE ARE THE BASIC STATE LAW DEADLINES.
UH, YOU HAVE TO MAIL NOTICES BEFORE THE 10TH DAY BEFORE THE HEARING DATE.
THERE'S BEEN SOME, UM, UM, UH, OF, AMONG CITIES ALL OVER THE STATE.
HOW DO YOU, YOU KNOW, HOW DO YOU INTERPRET THAT? UM, THE LEGISLATURE IN ITS INFINITE WISDOM, UM, YOU KNOW, DON'T, WE DON'T HAVE CONTROL OVER, OVER ALL OF THE LANGUAGE THAT THEY, UM, ADOPT.
BUT THE, I, YOU KNOW, AND I, I THINK THE, THE CONSENSUS IN MY FIRM, AND ALL WE DO IS REPRESENT CITIES, IS WHEN YOU SAY BEFORE THE 10TH DAY BEFORE THE HEARING DATE, I COUNT THAT AS 11 DAYS, RIGHT? BECAUSE IT'S GOTTA BE BEFORE.
SO IT'S BEFORE THE 10TH DAY BEFORE.
AND SO IT'S THAT, THAT USE OF TWO BEFORES.
NOW, WHY THEY DID IT THAT WAY, I CAN'T ANSWER.
BECAUSE IF YOU LOOK AT, YOU KNOW, YOU LOOK AT THE NEXT ONE BEFORE THE 15TH DAY, BEFORE THE DATE OF
[00:25:01]
THE HEARING.SO NOW, UM, THAT ISSUE HAS COME UP BECAUSE, UH, WHEN YOU'RE USING YOUR LOCAL NEWSPAPER, SOMETIMES IF YOU'VE GOT A DAILY, THAT'S GREAT, BUT SOMETIMES IF YOU HAVE A, YOUR LOCAL PAPER OF RECORD IS, IS NOT PUBLISHED, YOU KNOW, NOT A DAILY, THEN, THEN THAT CAN REALLY, YOU NEED TO BE VERY, VERY COGNIZANT OF THE PAPER'S DEADLINES TO MAKE SURE THAT YOU CAN MEET THOSE, THOSE NOTIFICATION REQUIREMENTS.
'CAUSE IF YOU DON'T, THEN, AND, AND YOU FAIL TO MEET ONE OF THESE NOTIFICATION DEADLINES, THEN THAT TOO CAN VOID THAT ZONING ACT, WHATEVER, WHATEVER THAT IS.
UH, THE, THE, THE COURTS REQUIRE STRICT COMPLIANCE WITH THOSE, UH, NOTICE REQUIREMENTS.
AND IF YOU MISS ANY OF THEM, EXCUSE ME, IF YOU MISS ANY OF THEM, THEN THAT WHOLE ZONING, UH, ORDINANCE IS, IS VOID CALLED ABIA FROM THE BEGINNING.
SO P AND ZS MAKE RECOMMENDATIONS.
HOW DOES THE LAGO VISTA CODE TREAT THAT RECOMMENDATION? UM, THIS IS JUST, I CUT AND PASTED YOUR ENTIRE SECTION 9.1805.
UM, AND, AND I'VE GOT SOME, THE, THE HIGHLIGHTED PORTION I THINK IS THE MOST IMPORTANT PORTION.
I WON'T READ ALL OF IT, BUT I'M GONNA SUMMARIZE IT FOR YOU.
UM, SOMETHING HAS TO COME FORWARD.
UH, LET'S ASSUME THAT ALL OF THE PROPER NOTICES HAVE BEEN SENT OUT.
UM, IF IT FAILS, UH, SHALL FAIL TO CARRY BY A MAJORITY VOTE.
CONSIDERATION OF THE APPLICATION OR ISSUE SHALL BE CONTINUED, SHALL, WHICH IS MANDATORY, CONTINUE TO THE NEXT REGULAR MEETING UPON A MOTION CARRIED BY A MAJORITY OF THOSE PRESENT VOTING.
SO WHAT THAT MEANS IS, UM, YOU KNOW, THERE, THERE, THIS, THIS CODE LIMITS P AND D AUTHORITY TO INDEFINITELY PUT OFF OR TABLE OR, YOU KNOW, UH, HOLD OFF ON MAKING DECISIONS ON, ON THESE ITEMS. THE, THE, THE CODE DIRECTS WHEN ANYTIME A, UH, A, A UH, PIECE OF LEGISLATION, UH, A STATUTE OR A CODE SAYS SHALL, THAT MEANS THAT THERE IS NO DISCRETION TO VARY FROM IT.
SO, UM, IF YOU SHALL, IF IT, IF IT SOMETHING DOESN'T PASS, IT SHALL BE PUT ON THE NEXT MEETING, UM, PROVIDED FURTHER THAT NO REQUEST OR APPLICATION SHALL BE CONTINUED UNDER THIS RULE BEYOND THE NEXT REGULAR MEETING.
AND THEN IN RED IS THE IMPORTANT PART.
IF IT MAKES IT TO THE NEXT MEETING, THE FAILURE OF THE COMMISSION TO SECURE A MAJORITY VOTE TO APPROVE HER RECOMMENDED APPROVAL SHALL BE RECORDED IN THE MINUTES AS A DENIAL.
AND SO, AT THAT POINT, THAT IS THE RECOMMENDATION THAT GET THE, THAT'S THE RECOMMENDATION THAT, THAT THE CITY COUNCIL WOULD GET, WOULD BE DENIAL IF IT DOESN'T PASS.
AND, AND, AND AGAIN, WHETHER THAT'S, IT DOESN'T PASS BECAUSE IT JUST FAILS, IT, IT, IT DOESN'T GET A VOTE.
IT, IT REALLY DOESN'T MATTER IF IT'S ANYTHING OTHER THAN A, A, A MAJORITY VOTE TO RECOMMEND APPROVAL, AND THAT COULD BE APPROVAL WITH CONDITIONS.
BUT IF IT'S ANYTHING OTHER THAN AN APPROVAL OR APPROVAL WITH CONDITIONS, THEN IT'S A DENIAL.
AND THEN THE CITY COUNCIL CAN ACT ON IT AND TREAT IT AS A DENIAL.
AND OF COURSE, THAT INVOKES YOUR, UM, SUPER MAJORITY, UM, AS A DENIAL, RIGHT? YOU GOTTA, YOU GOTTA HAVE TO APPROVE IT BY A SUPER MAJORITY.
OF COURSE, YOU ALWAYS HAVE TO APPROVE PDDS BY A SUPER MAJORITY ANYWAY.
SO REMEMBER THAT, UM, GENERALLY SPEAKING, SIMPLE MAJORITIES, UM, ARE OKAY, BUT NOT, IF NOT UNDER CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES.
IF THERE ARE, IF THERE ARE PROTESTS BY THE REQUISITE NUMBER, THEN IT'S A 75%, UH, SUPER MAJORITY.
SO IN LAGO VISTA, THAT MEANS SIX YES VOTES, ASSUMING WE HAVE AN ENTIRE COUNCIL PRESENT.
UM, AND, UM, THAT'S, SO THAT'S, THAT'S SOMETHING TO REMEMBER AS WELL.
YOUR P AND Z CONSISTS OF SEVEN VOTING MEMBERS AND UP TO THREE ALTERNATES.
EACH COMMITTEE, CITY COUNCIL MEMBER, APPOINTS A MEMBER AND AN ALTERNATE.
UM, THE TERM RUNS BASICALLY WITH THE TERM OF THE, OF THE APPOINTING MEMBER.
A QUORUM OF FOUR MUST BE PRESENT, UM, ALTERNATE SERVE IN THE ABSENCE OF, AND EACH COMMISSIONER MUST MEET THE QUALIFICATIONS OF THE CITY CHARTER SECTION 3.02.
WE HAVE TO KIND OF READ THAT BECAUSE THE, THE SECTION 3.02 OF THE CITY CHARTER IS WRITTEN WITH ELECTED OFFICIALS IN MIND, NOT APPOINTED OFFICIALS.
[00:30:01]
LIKED IT OR SOMETHING, YOU HAVE TO KIND OF, YOU KNOW, CHANGE THE, THE LANGUAGE A LITTLE BIT.BUT, BUT THE, THE INTENT IS, UM, LEMME SEE IF I HAVE IT ON THE NEXT, UH, NO, LET'S SEE.
UM, I, I, I MEANT TO PUT IN A, A SLIDE ABOUT WHAT YOUR CHARTER SAYS, BUT YOU HAVE TO HAVE RESIDED FOR A YEAR.
AND THERE ARE A COUPLE OF OTHERS, AND I CAN LOOK THAT UP MOMENTARILY.
BUT, UM, THEY'RE, THEY'RE FAIRLY STRAIGHTFORWARD, UH, QUALIFICATION REQUIREMENTS.
THE, THE SAME QUALIFICATION REQUIREMENTS TO BE AN ELECTED MEMBER OF THE BODY OF THE COUNCIL.
UM, SO P AND Z ALEXA, CHAIR AND A VICE CHAIR, YOU DO THAT INTERNALLY.
UM, YOU MEET REGULAR, YOU MEET REGULARLY, YOU ARE SUBJECT TO TOMA.
AND REMEMBER, UH, THE LEGISLATURE, THIS PAST LEGISLATIVE SESSION CHANGED IT FROM 72 HOURS TO THREE BUSINESS DAYS.
SO THAT HAS, WE, WE'VE STILL, YOU KNOW, WE'VE STILL GOT CITIES WHO ARE, ARE SOMETIMES MISSING THAT, UM, YOU KNOW, IT'S JUST, UH, IT'S, IT'S IMPORTANT TO KIND OF KEEP THAT CHANGE IN MIND.
IT'S, WE'VE, WE'VE ALL BEEN USED TO 72 HOURS FOR SO LONG, WE NEED TO RETRAIN OURSELVES IN THREE BUSINESS DAYS.
AND WE, WE DON'T COUNT THE DAY THAT THE AGENDA IS POSTED AS A BUSINESS DAY, AND WE DON'T COUNT THE DAY OF THE MEETING AS A BUSINESS DAY.
SO, SINCE LAGO, TO USE THE CITY COUNCIL AS AN EXAMPLE, THEY MEET ON THURSDAYS, THEN THAT MEANS, UM, ASSUMING THAT MONDAY, TUESDAY, OR WEDNESDAY ARE NOT, UH, RECOGNIZED HOLIDAYS, THOSE ARE THREE BUSINESS DAYS.
LAGO VISTA WOULD HAVE TO POST, UM, BY FRIDAY THE WEEK BEFORE, BUT FRIDAY'S NOT A WORK DAY.
THAT DOESN'T MATTER, OKAY? FOR, FOR, SO, SO FOR, FOR, FOR THE CITY OF LAGO VISTA.
UM, WHAT, WHAT STATE LAW SAYS IS THAT THE ONLY, UM, HOLIDAYS THAT ARE RECOGNIZED ARE OFFICIAL STATE OF TEXAS HOLIDAYS.
THAT LIST OF WHERE EVERYTHING IS CLOSED FOR THE STATE OF TEXAS, NEW YEAR'S CHRISTMAS, NEW THANKSGIVING, AND, YOU KNOW, SO FORTH.
OR LIKE, WHAT, EIGHT OF 'EM, I BELIEVE.
AND THEN STATE LAW ALSO ALLOWS CITIES TO DESIGNATE UP TO, I BELIEVE IT'S 10 DAYS IN THE COURSE OF A CALENDAR YEAR WHERE THEY ARE CLOSED.
BUT WE, WE LOOKED INTO THIS ISSUE ALREADY.
THE CITY'S, UM, YOU KNOW, FOUR DAY WEEK, YOU KNOW, REGULAR SCHEDULE, UH, FOR PURPOSES OF TOMA FRIDAY IS CONSIDERED, UH, A BUSINESS DAY, EVEN IF IT'S, UH, YOU KNOW, EVEN IF YOUR OFFICES HERE ARE CLOSED.
SO, UH, YOU KNOW, STAFF COMES IN AND, AND THEY POST AN AGENDA ON A FRIDAY, THEN THAT STILL MEETS THE TOMA BECAUSE IT'S MONDAY, TUESDAY, WEDNESDAY OF THE NEXT WEEK, OR THE BUSINESS DAYS OFFICIALLY RECOGNIZED BUSINESS DAYS.
THE ONLY WAY THAT WOULD BE AN ISSUE IS IF YOU, YOU KNOW, IF YOU DO, UH, DECLARE ONE OF THOSE DAYS, ONE OF THOSE 10 OFFICIAL CLOSED DAYS THAT YOU CAN DO IN ADDITION TO STATE HOLIDAYS.
SO, YOU KNOW, WE JUST NEED TO KEEP TRACK OF THOSE THINGS AND MAKE SURE, BECAUSE YOU DON'T COUNT ONE OF THOSE OFFICIAL CLOSED DAYS AS A BUSINESS DAY.
NOW, UH, I WANNA TALK FOR JUST A MINUTE ABOUT YOUR DIS DIS DISQUALIFICATION, UM, UH, SECTION IN, IN, FOR P AND Z MEMBERS SHALL DISQUALIFY, UH, WHENEVER THEY FIND THAT THEY HAVE A PERSONAL OR MONETARY INTEREST IN THE PROPERTY UNDER CONSIDERATION, OR THAT THEY WILL BE DIRECTLY AFFECTED BY THE DECISION OF THE COMMISSION.
UM, WERE I DRAFTING THAT TODAY? I WOULD PUT, UH, SOME MORE SPECIFICITY IN WHAT IT MEANS TO HAVE DIRECT, TO BE DIRECTLY AFFECTED BY THE DECISION.
UM, I, I, I THINK THAT THAT IS OPEN TO SOME INTERPRETATION.
UM, AND, AND, AND, YOU KNOW, IF YOU, AND THE OTHER THING IS THE, THE PERSONAL MONETARY INTEREST.
SO, YOU KNOW, STATE LAW CONFLICTS REQUIRE, THEY SET FORTH LIMITS OF WHAT IS, WHAT CONSTITUTES A MONETARY INTEREST UNDER STATE LAW.
THAT'S WHAT I WOULD FOLLOW, UM, FOR THAT ONE.
UM, THE, YOU KNOW, THE MANDATORY DISQUALIFICATION, IF YOU'RE DIRECTLY AFFECTED, I MEAN, ULTIMATELY, BECAUSE THAT IS KIND OF, UH, THAT'S, THAT'S SOMEWHAT ELASTIC.
MY, MY RECOMMENDATION TO EVERYBODY WOULD BE TO ERR ON THE SIDE OF CAUTION.
BECAUSE IF YOU DON'T ERR ON THE SIDE OF CAUTION, AND THAT ISSUE IS CHALLENGED AND, AND YOU'RE, YOU'RE, YOU'RE FOUND, UH, TO, TO BE DIRECTLY AFFECTED, UM, THEN, THEN IT COULD, UH, HAVE AN IMPACT ON THE NATURE OF THAT VOTE.
SO IF, IF IT'S A, IF IT'S A ONE PERSON APPROVAL, THEN THAT ONE VOTE WHO APPROVES GETS STRICKEN, THEN WHAT HAPPENS? YOU GO BACK AND MAYBE DO IT AGAIN.
WITHIN 200 FEET, THAT'S NOT WHAT IT SAYS.
[00:35:01]
THAT'S A QUOTE I UNDERSTAND.BUT IF YOU'RE WITHIN 200 FEET OF THE CASE, IS THAT DIRECTLY AFFECTED? THERE IS NO CASE NOR, UM, THAT I CAN POINT TO THAT ANSWERS THAT QUESTION DEFINITIVELY.
BECAUSE YOU MAY BE, AND YOU MAY NOT BE, YOU KNOW THAT.
SO, SO THAT'S THAT, YOU KNOW, IF, IF YOU ARE WITHIN DEFECT FEET, YOU GET NOTICE, RIGHT? YOU ARE ENTITLED TO NOTICE.
UM, BUT THAT'S, THAT'S AN ARBITRARY NUMBER THAT WAS CHOSEN BY THE, BY THE STATE LEGISLATURE.
DOES THAT MEAN THAT EVERYBODY WITHIN 200 FEET IS DIRECTLY AFFECTED? YOU, YOU'RE ENTITLED TO NOTICE, BUT THE LAW DOESN'T SAY, AND YOU HAVE A SPECIAL SEPARATE INTEREST.
SO I, YOU KNOW, AGAIN, I, I, I, I WOULD, I, I THINK IF WOULD BE PERHAPS ADVISABLE, IF YOU WANTED TO ADD 200 FEET, THEN YOU SHALL DISQUALIFY BECAUSE THEN THAT'S EASY.
IT'S ON OR OFF, RIGHT? WHEN IT'S NOT BINARY ON OR OFF, THAT'S WHEN IT GETS INTO QUESTION.
SO SOMEONE COULD SAY, HEY, YOU'RE WITHIN 200 FEET.
YOU'RE, YOU'RE ESPECIALLY AFFECTED.
IT'S THE CORNER OF MY PROPERTY.
I TECHNICALLY GOT NOTICE IT DOESN'T AFFECT BECAUSE IT'S, YOU KNOW, 5% OF MY LOT.
HOW CAN I POSSIBLY BE PERSONALLY AFFECTED BY THIS? I DON'T KNOW.
WHAT'S THE ANSWER? I DON'T KNOW THE ANSWER TO THAT QUESTION.
DID THAT, UM, REALLY, WE LIVE IN THE CITY,
ANY DECISION THAT WE MAKE, WE'RE AFFECTED BY WHETHER IT'S THE PROPERTY TAX RATE OR WHATEVER IT IS.
UH, SO EVERYBODY'S CONFLICTED
SO I'M JUST REALLY CONFUSED BY, YOU KNOW, WHERE YOU DRAW THE LINES ON THOSE THINGS.
I, I, I, THAT'S WHY I'M, I'M NOT, THAT'S WHY I PUT THIS, UH, SLIDE IN TO DRAW IT TO EVERYBODY'S ATTENTION.
UM, MY REQUEST, YOU KNOW, AS YOUR, AS YOUR LAWYER WOULD BE, WE NEED TO LOOK AT THIS AND, AND THINK ABOUT TIGHTENING UP DISQUALIFICATION, BECAUSE I DO THINK THERE IS SOME AMBIGUITY BUILT INTO IT, AND I THINK IT MAKES IT DIFFICULT TO, TO ANSWER WHAT IT, WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO BE DIRECTLY AFFECTED BY THE DECISION, RIGHT? UM, POSITIVELY AFFECTED NEGATIVELY EFF I, YOU KNOW, IT'S JUST, IT'S JUST VERY BROAD AND IT'S, IT'S NOT, UM, IT'S NOT WITHIN KEEPING OF, OF THE, THE, THE KIND OF THE TYPE DEFINITIONAL RULES THAT, THAT, THAT OUGHT TO APPLY TO DIS SOMETHING AS IMPORTANT AS DISQUALIFICATION.
UM, AND, AND THEN THE OTHER ONE, THE, THE DISCRETIONARY ONE, YOU MAY DISQUALIFY YOURSELVES IF AN APPLICANT, UM, OR THEIR AGENT HAS SOUGHT TO INFLUENCE THE VOTE OF A MEMBER OTHER THAN IN A PUBLIC HEARING.
WELL, IF AN AGENT, I MEAN, JUST TAKE IT AS MOST BROAD, AN AGENT OF AN APPLICANT, UM, I DON'T KNOW, THEY TAKE OUT AN AD IN THE PAPER.
I DON'T, I DON'T KNOW WHAT THAT MEANS.
I MEAN, I, YOU KNOW, I, IT'S, IT'S, COULD SOMEONE MAKE AN ARGUMENT THAT, HEY, WAIT A SECOND, YOU KNOW, YOU'VE BEEN INFLUENCED BECAUSE YOU MENTIONED, HEY, I SAW I HEARD ABOUT THIS ON FACEBOOK.
I DON'T, YOU KNOW, UM, AGAIN, BECAUSE IT RE DEALS WITH SOMETHING AS IMPORTANT AS DISQUALIFICATION.
UM, THAT'S, THAT'S REALLY, UH, THE SECOND ONE IS, IS, IS REALLY AMBIGUOUS.
UM, 'CAUSE I REALLY DON'T KNOW WHAT THAT MEANS.
UM, AND SO MY COMMENTARY THERE IS, YOU KNOW, SEEK LEGAL ADVICE.
IF YOU HAVE A QUESTION, IT, IT OBVIOUSLY BECOMES VERY FACT SPECIFIC.
YOU CAN SEEK, YOU KNOW, CITY ATTORNEY LEGAL ADVICE FOR THAT.
I, YOU KNOW, SEND A LETTER TO CHARLES, SEND IT, YOU KNOW, KNOW, SEND IT TO ME, SEND IT, WHATEVER, AND WE CAN, WE CAN ADDRESS IT ON A CASE BY CASE BASIS, BECAUSE IT'S JUST VERY DIFFICULT TO PROVIDE YOU WITH SOME KIND OF OVERARCHING RULE THAT TELLS YOU WHAT THAT MEANS.
AND WHEN YOU WOULD, WHEN IT WOULD BE ADVISED TO DISQUALIFY.
I JUST WANNA POINT OUT AGAIN, HOW
IT, IT, IT DOESN'T EVEN SAY THAT YOU'VE, UH, BEEN IN FLU.
IT JUST SAYS, IF SOMEBODY HAS SOUGHT TO YOU.
WHAT IS IT? I MEAN, I, YES, I'M NOT A FAN OF THIS SECTION.
THAT'S WHY I PUT THIS SLIDE IN HERE.
UM, AND, AND AGAIN, I I, I'M NOT TRYING TO TELL YOU YOUR POLICY IS YOUR POLICY.
IT'S NOT MY JOB TO TELL YOU WHAT YOUR POLICY SHOULD BE.
I'M JUST TELLING YOU FROM A PURE LEGAL, UH, STATUTORY INTERPRETATION STANDPOINT, THIS IS A DIFF TOUGH ONE TO INTERPRET CONSISTENTLY.
'CAUSE IT'S JUST GONNA VARY FROM PERSON TO PERSON.
SO THESE ARE, YEAH, I, I, I'M NOT GONNA GO OVER THE PARLIAMENTARY PROCEDURES VERY, VERY MUCH.
I MEAN, IT'S, THIS IS BASIC STUFF.
UM, UH, A FAILED MOTION ISN'T.
SO THIS IS, THIS IS COMING BACK TO WHAT IT MEANS TO, UH, IF YOU, IF YOU'RE AT THE SECOND MEETING AND A FAILURE TO SECURE A MAJORITY VOTE, IF IT'S A MOTION AND IT DOESN'T GET A SECOND, WELL, THEN THAT'S A, THAT'S A DENIAL.
UM, ANYTHING THAT DOESN'T CARRY BY A MAJORITY VOTE,
[00:40:01]
AND AGAIN, FAILURE TO SECURE A MAJORITY VOTE IS RECORDED AS A DENIAL.THAT'S THE RECOMMENDATION THAT THE CITY COUNCIL GETS GET.
SO IF YOU'RE GONNA CHANGE, YOU KNOW, IF YOU'RE GONNA REZONE, THESE ARE THE, THESE ARE THE FACTORS THAT YOU NEED TO THINK ABOUT.
CONSISTENCY AND COMPATIBILITY WITH THE MASTER PLAN, YOUR COMP PLAN, THAT'S A MANDATORY, RIGHT? THAT'S MANDATORY.
OR THE APPLICANT IS ALSO REQUESTING A, AN AMENDMENT TO YOUR COMP PLAN.
UM, CONSISTENCY AND COMPATIBILITY WITH YOUR SURROUNDING DISTRICTS.
WHAT IS THE PROTECT? DOES IT PROTECT THE HEALTH, SAFETY, WELFARE? AND DOES IT, UH, PRESERVE, UH, PROPERTY RIGHTS OF THOSE WHO ARE AFFECTED BY THE PROPOSED ZONING CHANGE? UM, SO THOSE ARE, YOU KNOW, THOSE ARE THE BASIC FACTORS THAT YOU HAVE TO CONSIDER.
I KNOW THAT THERE WAS A QUESTION, UH, THAT WAS RAISED RELATED TO SPOT ZONING.
MY LEGAL ADVICE TO YOU IS DON'T DO IT.
UM, BUT, BUT SPOT ZONING IS, IS A PRACTICAL MATTER IS, IS HARD TO DO.
AND THE REASON IT'S HARD TO DO IS BECAUSE TYPICALLY IT RELATES TO SMALL PARCELS THAT ARE ZONED VERY, VERY DIFFERENTLY FROM EVERYTHING AROUND IT.
IT IS DIFFICULT TO IMAGINE A SCENARIO WHERE THAT WOULD COMPLY WITH YOUR COMP PLAN, RIGHT? COMP PLANS DON'T GET THAT GRANULAR.
AND, AND SO IF YOU'VE GOT A, YOU KNOW, THEY DON'T HAVE TO BE A SMALL PARCELS, BUT THAT'S THE MOST COMMON.
SO IT'S HARD TO IMAGINE A SMALL PARCEL THAT'S ZONED RADICALLY DIFFERENTLY FROM EVERYTHING AROUND IT THAT, THAT MEETS COMP PLAN.
THAT'S JUST REALLY, REALLY UNLIKELY.
SO THE FIRST PROBLEM WOULD BE, WELL, IT'S DOESN'T COMPLY WITH YOUR COMP PLAN.
SO IT'S, IT'S VOID
UM, SO IT'S, YEAH, I, I'VE, I'VE BEEN DOING MUNICIPAL LAND USE AND ZONING ISSUES FOR, FOR 25 OF THE 30 YEARS I'VE BEEN A LAWYER.
I'VE HAD ONE SPOT ZONING, OKAY? SO IT'S JUST, IT DOESN'T HAPPEN A LOT ANYMORE.
I THINK PEOPLE UNDERSTAND, BUT NONETHELESS, IT CAN.
UM, AND MAKE SURE THAT, THAT IT, IT, THAT THE COMPATIBILITIES AND CONSISTENCIES ARE, ARE ALL THERE.
AND COMPLIANCE WITH YOUR COMP PLAN, UM, CONTENTS OF, OF MOTIONS FOR APPROVAL, OF DENIAL OF A SPECIAL USE PERMIT OR CONDITIONAL USE PERMIT, S-U-P-C-U-P, THEY'RE THE, THEY'RE THE SAME THING, JUST DEPENDING ON WHAT CITIES CALL THEM.
UM, AGAIN, IT HAS TO COMPLY WITH YOUR MASTER PLAN.
IT HAS TO BE COMPATIBLE WITH THE, THE, THE ZONING, THE BASE ZONING.
UM, AGAIN, IT'S THE SAME KIND OF CONSIDERATIONS.
UH, THE, THE PURPOSE OF A, OF A, OF A CP OR SUP IS NOT TO VARY RADICALLY FROM THE BASE ZONING.
UM, PMZ SHALL ISSUE REPORTS TO COUNCIL AND INCLUDE THE RESULTS OF YOUR VOTE.
UM, UH, AND SO, YOU KNOW, THAT CAN BE MINUTES, THAT CAN BE SOME MORE FORMAL.
I'M NOT SURE EXACTLY WHAT, WHAT Y'ALL, WHAT THAT PROCESS IS, BUT, YOU KNOW, THERE NEEDS TO BE SOME RECORDATION OF WHAT THOSE, UH, REPORTS TO COUNSEL ARE.
UPDATE YOUR MASTER PLAN EVERY FOUR YEARS.
WELL, HERE'S, HERE'S A LITTLE BIT OF LAW.
I DON'T, I DON'T REMEMBER IF THIS IS THE MORE THE, THE BIGGER P AND Z PACKET OR, UH, POWERPOINT OR NOT.
I THOUGHT THERE WERE A COUPLE MORE SLIDES IN THERE THAT DEALT WITH SOME THAT HAD SOME CASE LAW IN THERE.
I DON'T, I DON'T REMEMBER, BUT I'LL SHARE THAT WITH EVERYBODY, UM, AND MAKE SURE THAT YOU'VE, YOU'VE GOT IT THERE.
THE, THE, THE LAW THAT I, IF, IF THIS WASN'T IN THERE, THEN THE ONLY THING TO REMEMBER AGAIN, ARE THESE KIND OF BROAD CONCEPTS OF, AND I THINK IT WAS, IT WAS THE EUCLID CASE.
NEVERMIND, IGNORE WHAT I JUST SAID.
IT WAS IN THERE, UH, 14TH AMENDMENT.
UH, YOU KNOW, SO, SO THAT'S, WE HAVE TO THINK ABOUT DUE PROCESS.
SO THAT'S WHY, THAT IS WHY THE NOTICES ARE SO CRITICALLY IMPORTANT.
IF WE FAIL TO PROVIDE A REQUIRED NOTICE, THEN, THEN IN ADDITION TO POTENTIALLY VOIDING NOT POTENTIALLY VOID, THE, THE ZONING ACT, UM, THAT GIVES AN, AN INDIVIDUAL THE OPPORTUNITY TO RAISE AT AT LEAST A PROCEDURAL DUE PROCESS CLAIM.
SO IT'S REALLY, REALLY IMPORTANT THAT WE, WE GET ALL THAT STUFF RIGHT.
UM, SO, YOU KNOW, WE, YEAH, HERE'S, HERE'S, THERE'S EQUAL PROTECTION ISSUES IN ADDITION.
SO EQUAL PROTECTION FALLS UNDER, ALSO FALLS UNDER THE 14TH AMENDMENT.
AND WE NEED TO BE VERY CAREFUL WHEN WE HAVE USES THAT, THAT ARE PROPOSED THAT MIGHT BE UNPOPULAR.
AND I'VE DEALT WITH THIS ISSUE MANY, MANY TIMES AND, AND HANDLED A LOT OF LITIGATION FOR CITIES, PARTICULARLY
[00:45:01]
IN THE CONTEXT OF, OF, UM, UM, HALFWAY HOUSES OR, UH, SOBER LIVING HOMES OR, YOU KNOW, WHATEVER YOU WANNA CALL 'EM, RIGHT? AND, AND THAT HAS SPAWNED A LOT.IT, IT, THEY, THEY CAN BE UNPOPULAR.
YOU KNOW, YOU'VE HEARD THE NIMBY NOT IN MY BACKYARD, UM, KIND OF THING.
AND, AND, AND, AND I, I UNDERSTAND, BUT, BUT IF, IF WE DENY, UH, A USE OR ZONING OR AN SUP, UM, FOR THE WRONG REASONS THAT ARE ILLEGAL, THEN THAT OPENS THE CITY UP TO, UH, EXPOSURE AND, AND LITIGATION.
UM, AND RECENTLY THE, YOU KNOW, THIS LAST LEGISLATIVE SESSION, YOU KNOW, THE STATE CONTINUES TO CONSTRICT CITY'S ZONING AUTHORITY.
AND ONE OF THOSE WAYS IS THAT CITIES CAN NO LONGER RESTRICT OCCUPANCY ON THE BASIS OF, OF LACK OF FAMILIAL, UM, RELATIONSHIP.
RIGHT? AND SO THAT WAS, THAT, THAT, THAT'S BEEN A BIG ISSUE.
AND, AND THAT WAS VERY COMMON FOR CITIES TO DO FOR A VERY, VERY LONG TIME.
UM, BUT IT WAS, UM, BASICALLY FRAT HOUSE.
IT WAS THE FRAT HOUSE BILL, RIGHT? YOU KNOW, AND NOT WITHSTANDING THAT THAT FRAT HOUSES HAVE THEIR OWN ISSUES, RIGHT? YOU KNOW, BUT, BUT, BUT YOU GO, YOU KNOW, THOSE ARE, THOSE ARE, IT'S, IT'S KIND OF SIMILAR TO, UM, SHORT TERM RENTALS, RIGHT? YOU KNOW, WHAT THE COURTS HAVE SAID ABOUT SHORT TERM RENTALS AND WHAT THE COURTS HAVE SAID ABOUT, ABOUT, UM, YOU KNOW, THE FRAT HOUSE BILL.
AND WHAT THE LEGISLATURE SAID IS THAT IF YOU, IF IF YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH A PROPERTY BECAUSE IT'S NOISY OR THERE'S TOO MUCH, UH, TOO MANY CARS OR WHATEVER, WE HAVE THE TOOLS TO CITE THEM FOR NOISE AND TOO MANY CARS AND ALL OF THOSE THINGS.
YOU CAN'T PROHIBIT THESE PROPERTY, UM, RIGHTS, WHICH IS TO RENT YOUR HOUSE OUT, WHICH IS TO, UM, THE, THE, THE RIGHT OF ASSOCIATION FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE UNRELATED TO LIVE TOGETHER UNDER THE SAME ROOF.
AND THE LEGISLATURE HAS PROHIBITED CITIES FROM, FROM, FROM, FROM, UH, USING THAT AS PART OF YOUR ZONING OR ANY OTHER REGULATION.
NOW, YOU CAN LIMIT OCCUPANCY FOR FIRE CODE AND ALL THOSE ISSUES, BUT WHETHER THEY'RE RELATED OR UNRELATED IS NOT SOMETHING YOU CAN CONSIDER ANYMORE.
AND IF YOU DO, THEN, UH, CITY OF YOU GETS SUED AND WE'D, WE'D, WE'D LOSE THOSE TYPES OF THINGS.
UM, SO, YOU KNOW, THIS ILLUSTRATION HERE, UH, YOU DENY A REQUEST BASED ON NEIGHBORHOOD OPPOSITION CONCERNS ABOUT SAFETY OF CHILDREN.
UH, I WON'T GO TOO FAR DOWN THIS ROAD, BUT I HAD A CASE WHERE, YOU KNOW, IT WAS A HALFWAY HOUSE FOR PEOPLE WHO WERE CONVICTED FELONS AND OUT ON PAROLE, AND IT WAS LITERALLY SURROUNDED BY SINGLE FAMILY HOMES.
THE ROOFS WERE THREE FEET APART, AND THE CITY HAD A HOLE IN ITS ZONING ORDINANCE.
THEY PASSED AN ORDINANCE, UH, TO PROHIBIT THIS AFTER THE FACT.
SO NOT ONLY WAS IT TARGETING THAT PARTICULAR PROPERTY, BUT IT WAS RETROACTIVE.
THEY HAD ALREADY GOTTEN A CERTIFICATE OF OCCUPANCY AND ALL THAT KIND OF STUFF, AND THEY DID IT TO PROTECT, YOU KNOW, THE NEIGHBORHOOD AND THE CHILDREN.
AND I GET IT, BUT THEY WERE LI FOR
SO THOSE ARE THE TYPES OF THINGS THAT YOU JUST HAVE TO THINK ABOUT, UM, AND, AND SOMETIMES HAVE TO LIVE WITH.
UM, AGAIN, IT HAS TO COMPLY WITH YOUR CONTRA, EXCUSE ME, COMPREHENSIVE PLAN.
AND HERE'S THE, HERE'S THE CASE THAT SAYS THAT WEATHERFORD VERSUS CITY OF SAN MARCO, UM, UH, UH, YOU DON'T HAVE TO APPROVE A ZONE OR A REZONE BECAUSE IT COMPLIES WITH YOUR COMPREHENSIVE PLAN.
BUT, UM, BUT, BUT YOU, ON THE CONTRARY, COMPREHENSIVE PLANS IN TEXAS MUST BEAR THE FOLLOWING STATEMENT.
BUT IF A CITY IS, IT IS, SO THE COMPREHENSIVE PLAN IS NOT DE FACTO ZONING.
SO YOU HAVE THE DISCRETION TO SAY, YEAH, IT COMPLIES WITH THE COMP PLAN, BUT NO, WE DON'T THINK THIS IS APPROPRIATE.
THAT'S OKAY, BUT YOU CAN'T APPROVE SOMETHING THAT DOESN'T COMPLY WITH THE COMP PLAN.
SO THAT'S THE, THAT'S THE SEESAW THERE.
UM, AGAIN, CITY OF LAREDO CASE.
YOU KNOW, IF A REQUESTING LAND USE DOESN'T COMPLY, THEN YOU, YOU, UM, YOU DENY IT, OR, YOU KNOW, THEY SHOULD, YOU RECOMMEND AMENDMENT OF THE COMP PLAN.
IF YOU THINK IT'S A GOOD, YOU KNOW, A GOOD IDEA IF IT, IF IT MEETS OTHERWISE, YOU KNOW, THE, THE ZONING REQUIREMENTS OF, OF PUBLIC PROTECTION, OF HEALTH, SAFETY, WELFARE, GO FOR IT.
AND SO THE BOTTOM LINE IS THE MOST IMPORTANT LINE.
CONSIDER THE USE, NOT THE USER SECONDARY EFFECTS.
SO ONE OF THE OTHER THINGS THAT I'VE DONE A LOT OF IS, IS A LOT OF LITIGATION RELATED TO THE REGULATION OF SEXUALLY ORIENTED BUSINESSES AND THOSE TYPES OF REGULATIONS.
THE REASON CITIES CAN REGULATE THOSE, THESE, THESE THINGS THAT ARE FIRST AMENDMENT PROTECTED, UM,
[00:50:01]
EXPRESSIVE CONDUCT IS THE WAY THAT IT IS DESCRIBED.THE REASON CITIES CAN REGULATE THAT EXPRESSIVE CONDUCT IS BECAUSE OF THE NEGATIVE SECONDARY EFFECTS, DRUGS, PROSTITUTION, HIGHER CRIME, SO FORTH AND SO ON.
YOU HAVE TO DEMONSTRATE THAT EMPIRICALLY.
AND SO I, AS, AS A, AS A MEMBER OF THE TEXAS CITY ATTORNEY'S ASSOCIATION, I WAS INVOLVED IN A, UH, A VERY COMPREHENSIVE, UM, STUDY THAT WE USED IN THE CITIES CROSS TEXAS USE, UM, TO DEMONSTRATE THE NEGATIVE SECONDARY EFFECTS OF ADULT BOOKSTORES, WHICH ARE NOT AS BIG AS THE NEGATIVE SECONDARY EFFECTS OF, LIKE, FOR EXAMPLE, A TOPLESS CLUB.
BUT NONETHELESS, THEY'RE THERE.
AND WE, WE, WE, WE HIRED, UH, SOCIAL SCIENTISTS AND THEY PERFORMED ALL OF THIS, YOU KNOW, WHATEVER THEY DO.
AND THEY DEMONSTRATED DIMINUTION AND PROPERTY VALUES.
THEY DEMONSTRATED HIGHER CRIME, THEY DEMONSTRATED ALL OF THESE OTHER KINDS OF THINGS, NOT IN AS BIG A DIAMETER, RIGHT? UH, AS, AS, AS OTHER TYPES OF MORE INTENSIVE SOBS.
BUT NONETHELESS, SO, SO YOU CAN APPLY THAT TO OTHER THINGS.
IT'S NOT JUST APPLICABLE TO SOBS.
THAT IS THE NATURE OF IF, IF YOU'RE GONNA, YOU KNOW, IF YOU'RE GONNA REGULATE, UM, SDRS, FOR EXAMPLE, IN A WAY THAT'S THE ONLY WAY YOU COULD DO IT.
BUT YOU HAVE TO BE VERY, VERY CAREFUL, BECAUSE AGAIN, THE RIGHT TO RENT YOUR PROPERTY IS A FUNDAMENTAL PROPERTY, RIGHT? SO YOU CAN'T IMPAIR THAT FUNDAMENTAL PROPERTY, RIGHT? ALL RIGHT.
AND THAT'S THE END OF THE P AND Z PRESENTATION.
ANY OTHER QUESTIONS OR ANYTHING? I KNOW THAT WAS ROOTED NOT SEEING NAMES.
HEAR THE SNORING FROM THE BACK.
WHAT'S NEXT? BUILDING STANDARDS.
DO WE HAVE JUST TWO, ONE MORE CHECK? DO WE HAVE ANY MORE PEOPLE, UH, FROM ANY OTHER BOARD COMMISSION, THE CONSTITUTE QUORUM? OKAY.
THIS ONE WILL BE PRETTY SHORT.
SO, BUILDING AND STANDARDS COMMISSIONS, THEY ARE QUASI-JUDICIAL BOARDS CONSIST OF SEVEN MEMBERS UNDER, UH, AND THE CITY COUNCIL APPOINTS THEM UNDER, UH, AUTHORITY OF THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT CODE.
UM, YOU MAY ADOPT AN ALTERNATIVE ADMINISTRATIVE HEARING PROCESS TO ADDRESS CERTAIN ORDINANCES.
PUBLIC SAFETY RELATED TO THESE ARE THE THINGS THAT YOU CAN, THAT, THAT, THAT BUILDING A STANDARDS COMMISSION TO UNDER STATE LAW CAN CONSIDER.
AND, AND THEY AREN'T QUASI-JUDICIAL.
UM, YOUR BSC ALSO HAS AN ADDIT.
YOU'RE, YOU'RE A LITTLE BIT OF AN OUTLIER.
YOU ALSO HAVE THE ADDITIONAL AUTHORITY, THE B, THIS B, S, C, TO MAKE, UM, REC CERTAIN RECOMMENDATIONS, KINDA LIKE A P AND Z.
IT'S, BUT, BUT, BUT JUST IT'S NOTEWORTHY THAT, THAT, THAT, THAT THE LAGO VISTA BSC HAS THAT ADDITIONAL POWER.
SO IT IS MORE THAN JUST QUASI-JUDICIAL.
AND THE REASON THAT'S IMPORTANT TO NOTE IS BECAUSE, UH, BECAUSE YOU OPERATE, BECAUSE THE BSC OPERATES IN A QUASI-JUDICIAL FASHION, THEN THAT DOES, IF YOU MAKE RECOMMENDATIONS ON CERTAIN THINGS, UM, THAT MAY OR MAY NOT AFFECT THE NEED TO DISQUALIFY, IT'S SOMETHING FOR YOU TO THINK ABOUT.
BECAUSE, BECAUSE IT IS QUASI JUDICIAL CUP TO SAY, AND NOT JUST ADVISORY.
UM, YOU KNOW, AT THE END OF THE DAY FOR PMZ, YOU MAKE A, YOU MAKE A RECOMMENDATION.
BUT WHEN IT COMES TO A-A-B-S-C CHALLENGE WHERE YOU ACT AS THE, THE FINAL DECISION MAKERS WITHIN THE CITY, THAT CAN STILL BE CHALLENGED TO DISTRICT COURT, BUT YOU'RE THE FINAL DECISION MAKER.
AND, AND SO, YOU KNOW, THE, THE POWER TO MAKE RECOMMENDATIONS SHOULD BE USED JUDICIOUSLY BECAUSE IT, IT, IT COULD BE, IT, IT, IT, IT MIGHT AFFECT YOUR, YOU KNOW, A, A DISQUALIFICATION.
AND, AND, AND WHETHER IT WOULD OR NOT IS VERY DIFFICULT TO SAY, BUT YOU HAVE TO ANTICIPATE THAT IF A, IF AN APPLICANT GETS A DECISION THEY DON'T LIKE, AND YOU'RE, AND, AND THE BSC HAS JUST MADE A RECOMMENDATION THAT THEY DON'T LIKE YOU, YOU KNOW, WE NEED TO THINK ABOUT KIND OF WHAT THE POTENTIAL IMPACT OF THAT COULD BE, AND WOULD IT ACTUALLY RESULT IN A DISQUALIFICATION, I DON'T KNOW, VERY FACT SPECIFIC, BUT IF I'M A, IF I'M REPRESENTING SOMEONE WHO GOT AN ADVERSE DECISION, I'M GONNA THROW EVERYTHING AGAINST THE WALL THAT I CAN.
UH, OKAY, LET'S DECIDE TO STOP WORKING.
YOU CONDUCT PUBLIC HEARINGS TO DETERMINE WHETHER OR NOT STRUCTURES VIOLATE CITY BUILDING OR OTHER CODES.
YOU ISSUE ORDERS FOR REPAIR AND DEMOLITION.
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UH, YOU AUTHORIZE THE CITY TO ACT IF, IF YOU, IF THE OWNER FAILS TO COMPLY, UH, YOU HEAR CERTAIN, CERTAIN APPEALS, UM, FROM PERSONS AGGRIEVED BY ORDERS OF DECISIONS OF THE CITY AS IT RELATES TO BUILDING STRUCTURES, UM, ANIMALS, UM, YOU KNOW, SO FORTH, THAT TYPE OF THING.UM, UH, AND, AND YOU CAN MAKE RECOMMENDATIONS TO THE CITY COUNCIL TO MAKE MODIFICATION OF AMENDMENTS TO, UM, UH, BUILDING RELATED OR ANYTHING WITHIN YOUR PURVIEW.
YOU CAN MAKE THOSE RECOMMENDATIONS.
UH, BUT I PUT, YOU KNOW, CITIES MAY NOT REGULATE BASED ON AESTHETICS.
THAT IS, AGAIN, THE, THE, THE LEGISLATURE PASSED.
THE LEGISLATURE PASSED HOUSE BILL 24 39, WHICH PROHIBITS CITIES FROM ESTABLISHING STANDARDS THAT ARE MORE STRINGENT UNDER THE APPLICABLE NATIONAL CODES, MODEL CODES.
THAT'S IN THE GOVERNMENT CODE.
UM, AND THEN HERE, HERE'S THE FIFTH CIRCUIT.
THIS IS A, A FAIRLY RECENT CASE.
IT JUST CAME OUT, UM, IN FEBRUARY OF LAST YEAR, REGULATIONS PROPERTY FOR PURELY AESTHETIC PURPOSES OF VIOLATED THE TEXAS CONSTITUTION FOR A HUNDRED YEARS, AND STILL DO, IT'S A FAIRLY EMPHATIC STATEMENT.
UM, AND, AND SO THAT'S A VERY RECENT CASE.
UM, SO, AND IN THAT PARTICULAR CASE, IT WAS THE CITY OF SAN MARCOS, AND IT DEALT WITH A, UH, IT DEALT WITH A, IT DEALT WITH, UH, UH, AN, AN EXTERIOR FEATURE OF A BUILDING THAT, UM, THAT, THAT THE CITY SAID VIOLATED THEIR CODE.
AND, BUT IT WAS REALLY JUST FUNDAMENTALLY AESTHETIC BASED.
AND THE COURT SAID, NOPE, CAN'T DO IT.
AND IT'S BEYOND YOUR AUTHORITY.
YOU MAY NOT REGULATE AESTHETICS.
AND, UM, AND, AND THAT'S NOT NEW.
AND THAT'S THE REASON WHY I INCLUDED THE 1921 CASE, THE SPAN CASE, UM, ALLOWING THE BUILDING INSPECTOR TO APPROVE THE DESIGN.
YOUR ROOF SHOULD BE, YOU KNOW, A DIFFERENT ANGLE.
SO JUST, JUST BE AWARE OF THOSE THINGS.
UM, YOU, IT'S A VERY BROAD SUBJECT, BUT LET, LET'S SAY, YOU KNOW, THIS IS MIKE SPRINGS FROM AUSTIN, THAT THEY HAVE A RV, THEY HAVE TO BE FENCED, BE BEHIND THE FENCE, UH, MM-HMM
UH, PUBLIC SCREENING, ISN'T IT? AESTHETICS.
I'M GLAD YOU ASKED THAT QUESTION.
SO, SO ORDINANCES THAT INCLUDE AESTHETIC OBJECTIVES, BUT THAT ARE NOT PURELY AESTHETIC, THAT ARE RELATED TO OTHER VALID CONSIDERATIONS SUCH AS ING, MAINTAINING PROPERTY VALUES, LESSENING OF CONGESTION, AND AVOIDING UNDUE CONCENTRATION OF PEOPLE AND WHATEVER, RIGHT? YOU, YOU, YOU, YOU KNOW.
SO SOME OF THAT IS, IS HOW THE, THE REGULATION ITSELF IS, IS DRAWN UP.
AND IF YOU CAN IDENT, IF THE CITY CAN IDENTIFY NON AESTHETIC HEALTH, SAFETY, WELFARE, MORALS, REASONS TO REGULATE IT, THEN THEY MAY.
AND, UH, AND THAT'S WHAT THE UNIVERSITY, UH, PARK CASE STANDS FOR.
NOW, BEAR IN MIND, IT'S A 1940 CASE.
LIKE, I LIKE CASES THAT HAVE BEEN AROUND FOR A LONG TIME AND HAVEN'T BEEN OVERTURNED, BECAUSE THAT MEANS THAT, YOU KNOW, THEY'RE, THEY'RE GOOD LAW.
BUT BY THAT SAME TOKEN, I'VE ALSO HAD JUDGES TELL ME THAT'S AN OLD CASE, MAN, THAT CAN'T STILL BE THE LAW.
WELL, YOU KNOW, SO, SO YOU JUST HAVE TO KIND OF DEAL WITH THAT.
BUT, BUT IT IS IMPORTANT THAT IF YOU'RE GOING TO REGULATE AESTHETIC AESTHETICS MAY BE PART OF IT.
BUT THE PROBLEM WITH THE SAN MARCUS CASE WAS THAT IT WAS JUST AESTHETIC.
AND, AND, AND IT HAD NOT, THAT PARTICULAR REGULATION WAS DRAFT IN SUCH A WAY THAT IT JUST DIDN'T ENCOMPASS HEALTH, SAFETY, WELFARE, OTHER ISSUES, OTHER THAN WE DON'T LIKE IT.
IF IT'S JUST WE DON'T LIKE IT, THAT'S NOT GONNA FLY.
SO THE HOMES HERE, UH, LAGO VISTA, THAT NEED A 25%, UH, MAINSTREAM ON THE FRONT MM-HMM
IS THAT AESTHETIC, AESTHETIC, OR NO, THAT'S NOT JUST AESTHETIC THAT RELATES TO BUILDING STRUCTURE, UH, UH, UH, LONGEVITY, VALUE, ALL OF THOSE TYPES OF THINGS.
BUT THE LEGISLATURE, AGAIN, HAS ALSO LIMITED THO THE, THE ABILITY OF CITIES.
AGAIN, THE LEGISLATURE'S LIMITED THE ABILITY OF CITIES.
UH, YOU KNOW, I HAD A BIG FIGHT FOR THE CITY OF KYLE YEARS AGO, UM, ON, ON, ON THAT ISSUE AND THEIR SETBACKS, RIGHT? AND THIS WAS A CASE THAT WAS THE, THE CITY OF KYLE HAD ADOPTED, UM, LARGER SETBACKS AND MORE MASONRY REQUIREMENT.
THIS WAS ABOUT IN 2005 OR SO, THEY WERE SUED BY THE NAACP AND THE AUSTIN HOME BUILDERS ASSOCIATION.
AND, AND THE ARGUMENT WAS THAT THAT VIOLATED THE
[01:00:01]
FAIR HOUSING ACT BECAUSE THESE THINGS MADE HOUSES MORE EXPENSIVE.AND SO IT HAD A DISPROPORTIONATE, UM, UH, DISCRIMINATORY EFFECT, UM, ON, ON, ON CERTAIN INDIVIDUALS.
AND, UH, THEREFORE IT'S, YOU KNOW, BARRED UNDER THE FAIR HOUSING ACT.
KYLE FOUGHT IT, WE WON, WENT UP TO THE FIFTH CIRCUIT, AND THE FIFTH CIRCUIT SAID, NO, THAT'S, THAT'S NOT GOOD ENOUGH.
SO WHILE YOU'RE LIMITED IN ESTABLISHING MASONRY PERCENTAGES, LIKE THEY WEREN'T, YOU KNOW, LIMITED, YOU KNOW, 20 YEARS AGO, WHAT THAT STILL STANDS FOR IS THE PROPOSITION THAT YOU CAN, YOU CAN ADOPT THINGS AS LONG AS THE LEGISLATURE HADN'T SAID YOU CAN'T.
RIGHT? LIKE MASONRY, YOU CAN ADOPT THINGS THAT ARE, THAT, THAT ESTABLISH, YOU KNOW, A, A, UH, BRICK HOUSES, YOU KNOW, WHAT IS YOUR FINDING A LEGISLATIVE FINDING IS THAT, WELL, THESE, THESE HOUSES WITH MASONRY, WHETHER IT'S BRICK OR HARDY PLANK, OR WHATEVER THE CASE MAY BE, RIGHT? THOSE ARE MORE RESISTANT TO TERMITES.
THEY'RE, YOU KNOW, GONNA LAST LONGER.
THEY DON'T HAVE THE SAME, UH, THEY, THEY HAVE, UH, BETTER LONGEVITY, THEY, WHATEVER, RIGHT? THOSE ARE THE TYPES OF FINDINGS.
AND THAT'S NOT JUST PURELY AESTHETICS, RIGHT? THAT'S, THAT'S, THAT GOES TO OTHER THINGS.
BUT YOU HAVE TO MAKE THOSE LEGISLATIVE FINDINGS.
YOU CAN'T JUST, YOU KNOW, SAY, WELL, BRICK'S PRETTIER.
I THOUGHT THE STATE SAID YOU COULDN'T REGULATE EXTERIOR MATERIAL LIKE MASON, RIGHT? AND, AND HAVE A REQUIREMENT FOR MASONRY.
YOU COULD, RIGHT? THAT'S, THAT'S A MORE RECENT VINTAGE CITIES HAVE CITIES REGULATED AND HAD MASONRY REQUIREMENTS FOR FOREVER, RIGHT? BUT, BUT THE LEGISLATURE CHANGED THAT.
SO WHAT I'M SAYING IS THE LEGISLATURE CHANGED THAT.
BUT THE REASON I MENTION IT, BECAUSE THE REASON I MENTION IT IS BECAUSE IT WASN'T JUST AESTHETICS, RIGHT? IT WAS, IT WAS TIED TO HEALTH AND SAFETY AND, AND PROPERTY VALUES AND LONGEVITY AND ALL OF THOSE TYPES OF THINGS.
NOW, MASONRY HAS BEEN TAKEN OUT OF THE TOOL BAG FOR CITIES, BUT THERE ARE OTHER THINGS, RIGHT? YOU CAN STILL REGULATE SETBACKS, RIGHT? LEGISLATURE HADN'T, YOU KNOW,
SO, SO IF YOU DO THINGS, YOU KNOW, YOU SAY, WELL, WE WANT, WE WANT, WE KNOW MORE YARD.
WELL, THE ARGUMENT, WELL, IT'S BECAUSE, OH YEAH, YOU JUST WANT PRETTY YARDS.
NO, IT'S BECAUSE IT CUTS DOWN ON, UH, IMPERVIOUS COVER.
WHICH HELPS OUR WATER, WHICH HELPS DRAINAGE, WHICH HELPS, YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE TO TIE THOSE THINGS IN SMOKE.
I THINK THE, THE ONE PLACE WHERE YOU CAN STILL REGULATE AESTHETICS IS, UH, IN THE CASE OF MODULAR HOMES, IS THE STATE ALLOWS YOU TO MAKE THEM COMPATIBLE WITH THE SURROUNDING NEIGHBORHOOD.
ALL, EVERYTHING IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD HAS GOT ROCK ON IT.
YOU CAN REQUIRE THAT ON THE MONITOR.
SO THAT'S NOT PURELY, SO, I, I'M NOT THE, I THINK THE, THE DISTINCTION IS THAT IT'S NOT REGULATION ON PURELY ON AESTHETIC GROUNDS.
IT'S REGULATION ON GROUNDS OF, OF COMPATIBILITY AND UNIFORMITY OF NEIGHBORHOODS AND PROTECTION OF PROPERTY VALUES.
IT'S NOT JUST, WE THINK IT'S PRETTY.
SO THERE IS, AND AGAIN, AESTHETICS MAY BE A COMPONENT, RIGHT? AND THAT'S PART OF ZONING.
AND SO AESTHETICS MAY BE A COMPONENT.
UM, UM, UM, AND, AND THERE'S US SUPREME COURT PRECEDENT FOR THAT.
BUT IT CAN'T BE THE ONLY CONSIDERATION 'CAUSE IT'S UN BECAUSE IT'S WHAT'S CALLED UNFETTERED DISCRETION.
WHAT I THINK IS PRETTY, SOMEBODY ELSE MIGHT THINK IS UGLY.
UM, THESE ARE JUST, UH, OH, HERE, HERE'S YOUR, SO THESE ARE THE SAME.
THIS, THIS IS WHAT I COULDN'T REMEMBER FROM EARLIER.
THE CHARTER REQUIREMENTS FOR QUALIFICATIONS.
'CAUSE EVERY, EVERYTHING REFERS BACK.
SO AS P AND Z OR BSC OR WHATEVER, IT ALL REFERS BACK TO THAT SECTION OF THE CHARTER REGISTERED VOTER OF THE CITY ONE YEAR PRIOR TO APPOINTMENT.
21 YEARS OLD, NO OTHER ELECTED POSITIONS OR CITY EMPLOYMENT.
AND YOU'RE NOT IN FINANCIAL ARREARS TO THE CITY.
UH, MAJORITY MUST HEAR A CASE, CONCURRENCE OF FOUR COMMISSION, UH, ADOPTS RULES TO ESTABLISH PROCEDURES FOR HEARINGS, UM, TESTIMONY AND SO FORTH.
AND MINUTES OF HIS PROCEEDINGS SHOW THE VOTE OF EACH MEMBER, UH, AND, UH, RECORDS OF EXAMINATION AND OTHER OFFICIAL ACTIONS.
SO WE NEED TO BE SURE THAT, YOU KNOW, MINUTES CONTAIN ALL OF THE REQUISITE, UM, YOU KNOW, INFORMATION.
UM, SINCE YOU ARE, WHEN YOU ACT AS A QUASI-JUDICIAL BODY, RIGHT? THEY NEED TO BE A LITTLE BIT MORE, UM, DETAILED.
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BUILDING SUBSTANDARDS.YOU CAN ORDER THE IMMEDIATE REMOVAL OF PERSONS OR PROPERTY IF, UH, YOU KNOW, UH, UNDER, UNDER, UH, YOU KNOW, HEALTH AND HUMAN SAFETY, IF THERE IS AN IMMEDIATE DANGER OF, OF, UH, OF, YOU KNOW, DANGER TO LIFE AND LIMB OR SO FORTH.
UH, I'VE DONE THAT BEFORE IN OTHER CONTEXTS FOR OTHER CITIES.
UM, YOU JUST BEAR IN MIND THAT YOU GET, YOU GET PUSHBACK.
UH, AND IT, IT, IT, ON THE ONE HAND, YOU, YOU KNOW, THE, THE CON THE CIRCUMSTANCE IN WHICH I, ONE OF THE CIRCUMSTANCES IN WHICH I'VE DONE IT, YOU KNOW, MOST RECENTLY WAS FOR AN APARTMENT COMPLEX.
UH, THIS WAS FOR A LARGE CITY IN THE, IN THE VFW METROPLEX.
BUT THE QUESTION IS, OKAY, WE'RE, WE'RE GONNA REMOVE THESE PEOPLE FROM THIS, UM, LOW INCOME NEIGHBORHOOD, UH, APARTMENT COMPLEX.
WHERE DO THEY GO? RIGHT? AND SO, ON THE ONE HAND, YOU WE'RE, YOU KNOW, PROTECTING THEM FOR, YOU KNOW, BECAUSE THE, THE, THE DANGERS IN THIS COMPLEX, BUT THEN WHERE YOU, WHAT HAPPENS TO THEM, RIGHT? AND SO IT'S, IT, IT, THESE ARE CONSIDERATIONS THAT THAT SHOULD BE PART OF THAT, UH, THAT ANALYSIS.
UM, CHAPTER 54 ALSO ALLOWS THE CITY TO BRING CIVIL LAWSUITS, UM, AND TO, TO OBTAIN JUDICIAL RELIEF FOR THE REMEDIATION OF PROPERTY.
THE, THE, YOU KNOW, UM, EITHER REMEDIATION OR IT COULD BE THE DEMOLITION AND, AND SO FORTH THAT THE CITY CAN RECOVER CIVIL PENALTIES AGAINST AN OWNER.
UH, BUT AGAIN, SOMETIMES RECOVERING CIVIL PENALTIES AGAINST, UH, YOU KNOW, THE SLUMLORD IS DIFFICULT TO ACTUALLY COLLECT THAT, RIGHT? SOMETIMES IT, ALL YOU END UP WITH IS, IS A LIEN AGAINST THE PROPERTY.
UM, AN AGGRIEVED, UM, UH, INDIVIDUAL UNDER THE BSC, THEY CAN PETITION TO, UH, UH, UH, COURT.
UM, THERE ARE IMPORTANT, YOU KNOW, DISTRICT COURT MAY, THERE ARE IMPORTANT DEADLINES THAT THEY HAVE TO FOLLOW.
UM, AND THE DISTRICT COURT CAN AFFIRM IT OR REVERSE IT AND HOLD IT APART AND MODIFY THE DECISION.
SO IF AND WHEN WE EVER GET TO THAT, THAT PLACE, WE NEED TO TREAT IT LIKE A TRIAL, BECAUSE THAT'S ESSENTIALLY WHAT IT IS.
AND WE NEED TO MAKE SURE THAT WE'VE GOT ADEQUATE EVIDENCE AND THAT IT'S ALL DOCUMENTED.
AND, YOU KNOW, IT'S NOT SOMETHING THAT CAN, THAT, THAT BSES HAVE GOTTEN IN TROUBLE WHERE THEY HAVE, WHERE THEY HAVE JUST FAILED TO FOLLOW ADEQUATE, UM, REALLY DOCUMENTATION OF THE, THE BASIS OF WHAT THEY'RE DOING AND THE EVIDENCE AND SO FORTH.
IT, IT HAS TO BE TREATED LIKE A TRIAL.
AND THIS IS, IT'S GONNA PLAY OUT WITH BFCI THINK THIS YEAR, BUT DOES YOUR FIRM HAVE SORT OF STANDARD FORM NOTICE LETTERS THAT THE CITY COULD USE WHEN THEY'RE MAKING NOTICE TO SOMEBODY WHO MIGHT BE AN UNSAFE BUILDING, ARE GONNA HAVE A HEARING? SC YEAH.
SO YOU HAVE THOSE WE CAN PROVIDE THAT, YES, SIR.
JUST LET, LET ME, UM, SEND ME AN EMAIL.
I'LL SEND CHAR WHATEVER, AND WE CAN, WE CAN PROVIDE YOU TEMPLATES FOR THAT KIND OF STUFF.
FOR, FOR, BECAUSE THEY, THEY FOLLOW A FAIRLY STANDARD FORMAT.
SO, UM, WHAT'S BOA? UH, THE ENABLING LEGISLATION AND, UH, APPEALS AND, AND OPEN MEETINGS GOVERNANCE.
SOME OF THIS IS GONNA BE REPETITIVE.
I'LL TRY NOT TO DWELL ON, ON THINGS TOO MUCH.
SO, UM, A BOA IS ALSO A QUASI-JUDICIAL BODY.
IT MAKES FINAL DECISIONS, AND THERE IS NOT AN APPEAL TO THE CITY COUNCIL.
AND IT TOO IS ALSO SUBJECT TO TOMA.
UM, BOAS ARE CREATED PURSUANT TO, UM, TWO 11 OF THE GOVERNMENT CODE.
IT AUTHORIZES CITIES TO CREATE THEM AND ESTABLISHES THE, THE PROCEDURES FOR THE BOARD AND ESTABLISHES, EXCUSE ME, JUDICIAL REVIEW OF THEIR DECISIONS.
UM, YOU, UNDER YOUR CODE OF ORDINANCES, YOU'VE, YOU'VE GOT, UH, THE BO OA IS CREATED UNDER ARTICLE NINE AND, UH, CHAPTERS 14 AND 11, WHICH DEAL WITH VARIANCE APPEALS AND SPECIAL EXCEPTIONS.
SO THE BOARD CONSISTS OF EIGHT QUALIFIED, UH, ELECTORS OF THE CITY AFTER THREE ALTERNATES.
AGAIN, THE SIMILAR APPOINTMENT, UH, PROCESS THAT THE COUNCIL USES FOR EACH OTHER, UH, BSC AND PNZ,
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UM, UH, FOUR CONCURRING VOTES REQUIRED.75% CONCURRENCE IS REQUIRED TO GRANT A VARIANCE APPROVED OF SPECIAL EXCEPTIONS OR REVERSE ADMINISTRATIVE DECISIONS.
UM, ALTERNATE SERVE IN THE ABSENCE OF, OF PEOPLE WHO ARE EITHER DISQUALIFIED OR ABSENT OR ALTERNATES.
UM, AND SO THE, AGAIN, SIMILAR THING, BUT YOU, YOU KNOW, THE INTERNAL PROCESS IS THE SAME.
YOU ELECT A CHAIR AND A VICE CHAIR, UM, YEAH.
CITY MANAGER OR DESIGNEE TRANSMITS THE RECORD OVER THE UNDERLYING DECISION TO THE BOARD, UH, ON AN APPEAL OF AN ADMINISTRATIVE DECISION.
UM, SO THE POWERS AND DUTIES YOU HEAR AND DECIDE APPEALS WHERE IT'S ALLEGED THAT THERE IS AN ERROR IN AN ORDER, REQUIREMENT OF DECISION, UH, MADE BY AN ADMINISTRATIVE OFFICIAL IN THE ENFORCEMENT OF A ZONING OR PERMIT DENIAL.
UH, YOU HEAR SPECIAL EXCEPTIONS AND YOU AUTHORIZE VARIANCES, UH, WHEN NOT CONTRARY TO THE PUBLIC INTEREST AND SO FORTH.
UM, AND YOU DON'T HAVE AUTHORITY TO CHANGE OR AMEND PROVISIONS OF THE CODE.
AND IT'S LIMITED TO THE, THE JURISDICTION IS LIMITED TO HARDSHIP AND BORDERLINE CASES.
AND THAT'S AN, THAT'S AN IMPORTANT CONCEPT, BECAUSE WHAT WE HAVE TO GUARD AGAINST, THE REASON IT IS IMPORTANT TO HAVE, UM, CONSISTENCY AND GUARDRAILS IN THIS IS BECAUSE ULTIMATELY THE CITY COUNCIL IS THE LEGISLATIVE BODY POLICY MAKER, RIGHT? THEY'RE THE ONES WHO SET A POLICY.
THEY'RE THE ONES WHO ESTABLISH ZONING.
THEY'RE THE ONES WHO, UM, SET FORTH, UH, YOU KNOW, REQUIREMENTS, HEIGHT, UH, BULK WIDTH, YOU KNOW, SETBACKS.
UH, CAN YOU HAVE A POOL HERE? I MEAN, THOSE ARE SOME OF THE ISSUES THAT HAVE COME UP, YOU KNOW, JUST IN THE, IN THE, IN THE TIME THAT I'VE BEEN HERE.
UM, AND SO WHAT, WHAT, YOU KNOW, THE, THE OVERRIDING CONCERN IS, IS THERE CONSISTENCY AND ARE APPLICANTS BEING TREATED UNIFORMLY? SO THE APPEAL OF AN ADMINISTRATIVE DECISION, UM, THE FOLLOWING PERSONS CAN APPEAL TO THE BOA, UM, A PERSON AGGRIEVED BY ANY OFFICER, BOARD, BUREAU, OR MUNICIPALITY, UH, AFFECTED OR MUNICIPAL OFFICER THAT SHOULD SAY, RELATED TO SPECIFIC APPLICATION ADDRESS OR PROJECT.
SO THE PERSON WHO FILED THE APPLICATION, UH, THE OWNER OR REPRESENTATIVE, OR THE PROPERTY, THAT IS THE SUBJECT OF THE DECISION, UM, AN AGGRIEVED, UH, INDIVIDUAL WHO'S WITHIN 200 FEET OF THE PROPERTY AND ANY OFFICER, BOARD OR BUREAU OF THE CITY.
CAN YOU GO BACK ONE SIDE? UH, IT TALKS ABOUT, UM, THIS IS THE LONGSTANDING CONVERSATION, HEARING SIDE, SPECIAL EXCEPTIONS.
BUT THE BOARD'S JURISDICTION IS LIMITED TO HARDSHIPS.
SO THAT BRINGS UP, I THINK THAT THERE, THERE'S THE QUESTION, IF I WANT TO BUILD MY HOUSE HIGHER, WELL, IT'S A SPECIAL EXCEPTION.
WELL, WHERE'S THE HARDSHIP? SO I ASK A QUESTION.
THIS IS, THIS HAS BEEN AN, THIS HAS BEEN A TOPIC OF MUCH, UH, DISCUSSION AND, AND DEBATE HERE.
UM, I THINK WHAT I DID, IF I RECALL, LET'S SEE SLIDES FORWARD SPECIFICALLY OF APPEALS.
SO HERE'S YOUR SPECIAL EXCEPTION, AND TREATMENT OF LAND SHOULD BE SUBSTANTIAL UNIFORM, BUT SPECIAL EXCEPTIONS MAY BE GRANTED DUE TO THE UNIQUE CHARACTERISTICS OF CERTAIN LAND AND IMPROVEMENTS.
UM, WRITTEN NOTICE TO ALL PROPERTY OWNERS WITHIN 200 FEET, NOT LESS THAN 15 DAYS BEFORE THE HEARING, 75% VOTE TO APPROVE SPECIAL EXCEPTION TO HEIGHT.
IT MAY BE APPROVED IF THERE'S NO SIGNIFICANT ADVERSE IMPACT ON THE VIEW OF ANOTHER PROPERTY OR ARCHITECTURAL CONTEXT OF SURROUNDING NEIGHBORHOOD.
THAT'S, THOSE ARE THE GUIDELINES THAT THAT'S A VERY AMBIGUOUS SUBJECTIVE, WELL, HERE'S, HERE'S WHY.
IT MAY APPROVE IF NO SIGNIFICANT, WHO DECIDES, I MEAN, ONE PERSON'S SIGNIFICANT IMPACT IS ANOTHER PERSON'S, I MEAN, THAT DOESN'T BOTHER ME.
SO HERE'S, HERE'S THE, I THINK FROM MY PERSPECTIVE AS AGAIN, NOT, I'M NOT COMMENTING ON YOUR POLICY, BUT JUST AS A LEGISLATIVE, UM, YOU KNOW, UH, STATUTORY INTERPRETATION ISSUE IS NUMBER ONE, AGAIN, THE VIEW OF, YOU KNOW, IS THERE A SIGNIFICANT ADVERSE IMPACT
[01:15:01]
ON THE VIEW OF ANOTHER PROPERTY? BY DEFINITION, THE PERSON WHO'S COMING IN AND ASKING FOR THE SPECIAL EXCEPTION, THEY'RE GONNA TELL YOU, WELL, OF COURSE NOTI MEAN, IF THEY ADMIT THAT THERE'S A SIGNIFICANT ADVERSE IMPACT, THEN THEN YOU MUST DENY
RIGHT? SO THEY HAVE A VESTED INTEREST IN, IN, IN TAKING THE POSITION THAT THERE IS NO SIGNIFICANT, UM, ADVERSE IMPACT ON THE VIEW OF ANOTHER PROPERTY, BECAUSE THAT'S THE, THEY HAVE TO CLEAR THAT HURDLE, OR THEY SHOULDN'T BE ENTITLED TO A SPECIAL EXCEPTION.
WHAT THAT MEANS THEN, IS THAT IT, THAT THEN SHIFTS THE BURDEN TO THE NON APPLICANT TO COME FORWARD AND SAY, HEY, YEAH, NO, I, MY VIEW WILL BE SIGNIFICANTLY IMPACTED.
AND YES, DO THEY GET NOTICE IF THEY'RE WITHIN 200 FEET? YES, THEY GET NOTICE.
BUT THE BURDEN UNDER YOUR STAT, THIS IS THE PROBLEM FROM A LEGAL INTERPRETATION STANDPOINT, UNDER YOUR ORDINANCE, THE BURDEN IS ON THE APPLICANT TO ESTABLISH THE NEED FOR A SPECIAL EXCEPTION.
ALL THEY HAVE TO DO IS COME IN AND SAY, HEY, THERE'S NO SIGNIFICANT IMPACT.
AND THEN THE BURDEN SHIFTS TO THE NON APPLICANT TO SAY, YES, THERE IS, THAT IS AT ODDS LEGALLY, THAT IS AT ODDS WITH THE OTHER SECTIONS THAT ESTABLISH THE BURDEN ON THE APPLICANT.
SO THAT'S MY, YOU KNOW, I MEAN, JUST, JUST FROM A STATUTORY INTERPRETATION STANDPOINT, THAT'S MY PROBLEM WITH IT.
UM, NOT WITHSTANDING THE ISSUE OF WHAT'S SIGNIFICANT TO ONE PERSON IS NOT SIGNIFICANT TO ANOTHER.
UM, BUT EVEN YOUR, IF, IF THE, IF THE, IF THE APPLICANT IS ASKING FOR ENOUGH OF A VER OF A, OF A SPECIAL EXCEPTION, THEN, UM, THEN THEY HAVE THEN IF IT, IF IT EXCEEDS A CERTAIN HEIGHT.
I THINK THE LAST SLIDE GOES INTO SOME OF THAT DETAIL.
YOU'RE LOOKING FOR 15 DAY NOW SOCIAL SUCCESSION.
I, I FORGET THE, SO, SO IT SAYS MAY NOT EXCEED 45 FEET, BUT IF IT DOES, THEN THEY HAVE TO, THEN THEY HAVE TO MEET THE HARDSHIP VARIANCE STANDARD, 35 FOOT, 35 FOOT.
SO AT SOME POINT, THEY HAVE TO MEET THE VARI.
THEY, THEY HAVE TO MEET THE, THE, YOU KNOW, YOUR VARI STANDARD.
BUT IF IT'S, IF IT'S NOT AS MUCH, THEY ONLY HAVE TO MEET THIS STANDARD.
AND I THINK, I THINK LEGALLY WHAT WHAT THAT DOES, POTENTIALLY DOES IS THAT IT EXPOSES THE CITY TO, UM, TO CLAIMS OF, OF, UH, DIFFERENTIAL TREATMENT.
RIGHT? IT IS HARD TO DEMONSTRATE CONSISTENCY, UM, UNDER THAT STANDARD AND IN, AND FOR THE SPECIAL EXCEPTION, UM, STANDARD.
UM, WHICH, YOU KNOW, AGAIN, THE, IF WE GO BACK TO THE EARLIER RIGHT, TREATMENT SHOULD BE SUBSTANTIALLY UNIFORM.
THAT IS THE, THAT'S THE, THAT'S THE, THE, THE DIRECTION, THE LEGISLATIVE DIRECTION IS THAT IT SHOULD, THE BASELINE IS THAT IT SHOULD BE SUBSTANTIALLY UNIFORM.
AND, UH, AND IF IT'S NOT, THEN, UM, YOU KNOW, UH, I'M SORRY, SORRY ABOUT THAT.
THERE, THERE APPROVAL'S GREATER THAN 35 FEET SHALL DEMONSTRATE THE UNNECESSARY HARDSHIP, WHICH IS YOUR, YOUR VARIANCE STANDARD.
SO I, I THINK, I MEAN, AGAIN, I, I DON'T HAVE A PERSONAL OPINION ON IT, BUT I THINK FROM A, FROM A, FROM AN INTERPRETATION STANDPOINT, UM, IT WOULD, IT, IT, IF, IF I'M AN AGGRIEVED PERSON WHO I GET IT OR I DON'T GET IT, IF YOU GIVE IT TO SOMEONE, THEN SOMEONE WHO'S WITHIN 200 FEET SAYS, THAT'S AN ARBITRARY USE OF YOUR POWER.
I'M GONNA CHALLENGE IT IN COURT.
IF YOU DON'T GIVE IT TO 'EM, AND THEY SAY, THAT'S AN ARBITRARY USE OF YOUR POWER, I'M GONNA CHALLENGE IT IN COURT.
SO YOU'VE OPENED UP THE DOOR FOR, YOU KNOW, NO MATTER WHO WINS OR LOSES, YOU'VE, YOU'VE OPENED THE DOOR FOR THAT TO BE CHALLENGED.
AND, AND, AND IF, IF I'M ASKED TO DEFEND THAT IN COURT, ALL I CAN SAY IS, WELL, NO SIGNIFICANT, YOU KNOW, I MEAN, THAT'S A HARD, THAT, THAT'S JUST SQUISHY.
WHAT, WHAT WE NEED TO DO IS SHIFT THE BURDEN TO THE APPLICANT AND SAY, PROVE TO US THAT YOU'RE NOT IMPAIRING ANYBODY'S VIEW.
THERE ARE STUDIES, THERE'S WAYS TO DO THAT.
THERE'S DRONE STUDIES, TOPOGRAPHY, MAKE THEM PUT THE BILL TO PROVE THAT THEY'RE NOT IMPACTING WITH YOU.
THE PROBLEM, WE HAVE THE ABSOLUTE LOWEST HEIGHT IN THE STATE OF TEXAS, 18 FOOT.
THAT'S, YOU CAN'T BUILD A MODERN HOUSE WITH, YOU KNOW, 10 FOOT CEILINGS AND HIGH 50 ROOF WITH 18 FOOT.
THE OTHER ISSUE YOU HAVE, YOU MEASURE FROM THE TOP, THE HIGHEST POINT ON THE PROPERTY, WHEN YOU
[01:20:01]
SET UP INEQUITIES THERE BETWEEN A PERSON WITH A FLAT LOT AND A PERSON WITH A SLOW LOT.THIS GOT TO BUILD TWO STORIES.
THIS GUY CAN, THE EXCEPTION IS SUPPOSED TO EQUALIZE THAT.
I MEAN, THERE WAS A CITY COUNCIL THAT PUT THAT IN A LONG TIME AGO FOR THAT REASON.
AND, AND THAT 18 FOOT CAME FROM EARLY DAYS.
AND, YOU KNOW, THEY WERE ADVERTISING SPECTACULAR VIEW FROM EVERY LOT.
AND THEY PUT THAT IN IT WHEN THEY INCORPORATED, THEY DIDN'T CHANGE IT UNTIL THIS CITY COUNCIL SAID, YOU KNOW, WE, WE GOT PEOPLE.
IT WAS, UH, IT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE A COMMUNITY RETIREMENT, COMMUNITY HOUSING FAMILY STARTED MOVING IN.
COUPLE OUR 25 FOOT SETBACKS, WHICH ARE THE LARGEST IN THE STATE WITH OUR SMALL LOTS AND AND HEIGHT RESTRICTIONS, FAMILIES THAT NEED ROOM HAVE ENOUGH WAY TO BUILD IT.
SO WHAT YOU'RE, WHAT WHAT'S BEING DESCRIBED HERE ARE SOME, UM, FUNDAMENTAL INCOMPATIBILITIES WITHIN THE ORDINANCE ITSELF.
RIGHT? I MEAN, THAT'S JUST, THAT'S, THAT'S, THAT'S THE, THE TAKEAWAY I GET FROM THIS IS THAT ORDINANCE IS PRETTY BAD, AND IT NEEDS TO BE AMENDED AND FIXED THERE, AND THERE ARE A VARIETY OF WAYS TO DO IT.
I, I ABSOLUTELY AGREE THAT IT EXPLICITLY, AT A MINIMUM, IF YOU'RE GONNA KEEP THIS SPECIAL EXCEPTION KIND OF RUBRIC, IT NEEDS TO EXPLICITLY SAY, AND THE BURDEN IS ON THE APPLICANT TO DO SO.
BECAUSE THE WAY THAT'S WRITTEN NOW IS THAT REALLY THE BURDEN HAS SHIFTED TO THE NON APPLICANTS, THE SURROUNDING PROPERTY OWNERS.
SO THAT'S, THAT'S THE FIRST PROBLEM.
THE OTHER, THE OTHER ISSUE THEN IS IF YOUR SETBACKS ARE DIFFERENT, OR IF YOUR HEIGHTS ARE DIFFERENT, THEN, THEN THEY, THIS DOESN'T COME INTO PLAY AS OFTEN, RIGHT? SO THAT'S, YOU KNOW, IT'S, IT'S IT, YOU'RE ON A FULCRUM HERE, YOU KNOW, WHICH, WHICH, WHICH, IN WHICH END OF IT DO YOU WANNA PUSH? THAT'S, UH, A QUESTION.
UH, IF WE WERE AS A CITY TO RECONSIDER WHAT THAT CODE LOOKS LIKE, WHAT DOES THAT PROCESS LOOK LIKE? WHERE DOES IT INITIATE WHO NEEDS TO BE INVOLVED? HOW DO WE TACKLE THAT? BE WELL, UH, RIGHT NOW, I MEAN, I KNOW THAT THERE'S THE CODE DIAGNOSTIC THAT'S ONGOING, THAT THAT'S GOING TO COME OUT LATER THIS YEAR.
BUT FROM A, FROM A, UM, LEGISLATIVE PROCEDURAL STANDPOINT, WHATEVER, THAT, WHATEVER THAT CODE DIAGNOSTIC AND THOSE RECOMMENDATIONS LOOK LIKE, THAT'S GONNA GO THROUGH PMZ.
PMZ IS GONNA MAKE THE RECOMMENDATIONS.
AND THEY'RE, AND ALONG THE WAY, BECAUSE THESE ARE, UH, CITYWIDE, UM, YOU KNOW, THEY, THERE ARE TWO TRAINS OF THOUGHT ON THIS.
WE PROVIDE 200 FOOT AND WE PROVIDE WRITTEN NOTICE TO EVERYBODY, AND WE JUST PUT IN YOUR UTILITY BILL.
RIGHT? THAT'S THE EASIEST WAY TO DO IT.
SOMETHING, YOU KNOW, AND THAT'S THE BELTS AND SUSPENDERS.
THERE'S, THERE'S A VIEW THAT IF IT'S A CITYWIDE, YOU DON'T HAVE TO DO THAT.
STICK A FLYER AND A UTILITY BILL, PUT IT ON EVERYBODY'S DOOR.
I, YOU KNOW, I DON'T THINK IT'S WORTH THE, THE RISK TO ME.
SO, I, I THINK, I THINK THAT NOTICE IS, IS, IS JUST PRUDENT, EVEN IF IT INCURS SOME KIND OF COST TO THE CITY TO DO SO, I THINK IT'S PRUDENT.
YOU DON'T WANNA HAVE TO FIGHT THAT FIGHT.
UM, BUT YEAH, IT'S GONNA HAVE TO FOLLOW THAT PROCESS.
BUT BECAUSE WE'RE TALKING ABOUT WHAT WOULD BE A SIGNIFICANT CHANGE, YOU'RE ALSO GOING TO, UH, WHAT I'VE SEEN OTHER CITIES DO IS TO GET PUBLIC BUY-IN.
YOU HAVE ETTES OR WORK SESSIONS OR PEOPLE, YOU KNOW, UH, FILL OUT SURVEYS AND, AND, AND SO FORTH AND, AND GET THAT PUBLIC FEEDBACK.
THAT'S WHAT I'VE SEEN OTHER CITIES DO WHEN THEY'VE HAD TO.
AND I, AND BECAUSE I'VE REPRESENTED SO MANY CITIES THAT GO FROM SMALL BEDROOM COMMUNITIES TO GROWTH HITS, AND THEY EXPLODE.
I, YOU KNOW, I, I DID THAT DECADES AGO FOR, FOR WHEN BERNIE, THE CITY OF BERNIE, WAS EXPLODING.
RIGHT? THAT WAS MY FIRST EXPERIENCE DEALING WITH THAT IN THAT CONTEXT.
AND I'VE DEALT WITH IT WITH MANY, MANY CITIES SINCE THEN.
SO I THINK JUST GETTING THAT PUBLIC BUY-IN AND HAVING THOSE, THAT'D BE MY RECOMMENDATION.
I THINK, UH, I MEAN, YOU AND I BOTH KNOW, BECAUSE WE'VE BEEN AT EVERYONE, BOARD ADJUSTMENTS, ISSUES THAT'S COME UP IN THE PAST YEAR.
IT'S BEEN NOT JUST A SOMETIMES ISSUE.
IT'S BEEN A MASSIVE TOPIC OF CONSTERNATION EVERY TIME A SPECIAL EXCEPTION FOR HEIGHT CAME UP, OR VARIANCE REQUEST CAME IN INSTEAD OF A SPECIAL EXCEPTION.
MY VIEW OF IT IS OUR CODE IS PROBABLY INTENTIONALLY WRITTEN TO HAVE THE METRICS FOR THE SPECIAL HEIGHT EXCEPTION, TO BE LESS STRINGENT THAN VARIOUS REQUESTS, BECAUSE WE DO HAVE SUCH UNIQUE TOPOGRAPHY.
SO SOMEWHERE, A FORMER COUNSEL HAD THE INTERPRETATION THAT THERE SHOULD BE THAT LEEWAY AND BOARD OF JUST MENTIONED STUFF WITH HAVING TO SORT OUT THAT BURDEN OF PROOF.
AND THAT'S TO GET THOSE THROUGH.
BUT YEAH,
SO WE'VE WATCHED A KIND OF A CHASM GROW BETWEEN TWO FACTIONS WITHIN A BOARD OF ADJUSTMENTS,
[01:25:01]
REGARDLESS OF WHO'S ON THAT BOARD.YOU HAVE ONE CAMPUS WHO SAYS, LET'S LOCK ALL THIS DOWN, WE SHOULDN'T DO ANY OF IT.
AND ANOTHER CAMPUS SAYS, WELL, WAIT A MINUTE.
WE PROBABLY HAVE THIS NUANCE FOR A REASON.
AND THEN THE CONFUSION BEGINS, AND EVERYBODY COMES BACK AND WE RINSE, REPEAT FOR THE NEXT MEETING.
SO IF WE'RE GOING TO REVISE THAT, THAT LOOKS LIKE A PROCESS, FROM WHAT I'M HEARING, WHERE WE'LL WATCH A CHANGE COME THROUGH P AND Z, BACK THROUGH COUNCIL, THEN BACK.
UH, THERE, THERE'S NOTHING ABOUT THE BOARD ADJUSTMENT THAT COMES IN TO WEIGH IN ON THAT.
BUT THE BOARD OF ADJUSTMENT SHOULD HEAVILY BE INVOLVED IN THAT PROCESS AND ATTENDING THOSE MEETINGS, PAYING ATTENTION, PROVIDING INPUT, BEATING THE DRUM FOR THE PUBLIC.
I, I, I DON'T, I DON'T DISAGREE WITH ANY OF THAT.
AND I THINK, MAKE SURE I UNDERSTAND IT.
'CAUSE I'D LOVE TO BE ABLE TO MAKE THAT PROCESS.
FOR THE PAST, AT LEAST THE PAST YEAR.
WELL, I, YOU KNOW, I, THAT'S JUST, I'VE, I'VE DEALT WITH THIS FOR Y'ALL MANY, MANY, MANY TIMES, AND IT'S BECAUSE OF THE, THE TENSION THAT'S BUILT INTO THE ORDINANCE.
YOU KNOW, AND, AND, AND THERE ARE, THERE ARE ABSOLUTELY WAYS TO, YOU KNOW, THE REASON THAT THIS MAKES SENSE, THE GOOD PUBLIC POLICY REASON TO ADDRESS HEIGHT IS BECAUSE OF YOUR TOPOGRAPHY.
UM, YOU KNOW, PFLUGERVILLE PROBABLY DOESN'T HAVE TO DO THAT, RIGHT.
SO, UM, SO, SO, BUT, BUT, BUT NOTABLY, THE, THE TOPOGRAPHY OF A LOT, THE, THE ISN'T, THAT'S NOT IN THERE.
AND SO, YOU KNOW, WHAT IS, WHAT, YOU KNOW, IT, IT THERE, AND LOOK, I'M NOT, YOU KNOW, I KIND OF SPIT BALLING THIS HERE, BUT, BUT WHEN THERE ARE CERTAIN VARIANCES BETWEEN LOT LEVELS, RIGHT? MAYBE THAT'S A CONSIDERATION THAT, THAT GOES INTO THE HEIGHT OF A BUILDING, RIGHT? IF YOU'RE, IF YOU'RE IN A, YOU KNOW, UP, UP HIGH OR DOWN LOW, THAT'S, THAT'S THE, THE REASON WHY YOU PROBABLY HAVE THAT KIND OF THING.
BUT THAT'S NOT MENTIONED ANYWHERE IN THERE.
IT'S JUST TALKED ABOUT THE VIEW AND FROM, YOU KNOW, THE, YOUR NEIGHBORS ARE THE ONES WHO GOTTA FIGHT IT.
SO THAT, THAT'S, I THINK THERE ARE PLENTY OF WAYS TO ADDRESS IT, AND I THINK IT SHOULD BE ADDRESSED, AND MAYBE IT'S THAT WAY.
UM, BUT I THINK IT SHOULD BE ADDRESSED BECAUSE MY, MY ONLY CONCERN IS, IS IS, YOU KNOW, IS INSULATING THE CITY FROM, YOU KNOW, ARBITRARY, YOU KNOW, YOU KNOW, OF CHALLENGES TO, YOU KNOW, ARBITRARY DECISION MAKING.
I SHARED THAT CONCERN BEING ONE OF THE DECISION MAKERS ON A QUA QUASI JUDICIAL BOARD.
YOU'RE FACING THAT WHEN YOU HAVE TO MAKE THOSE DECISIONS.
AND THE HARDER THOSE DECISIONS ARE TO MAKE, THE MORE YOU'RE OPEN FOR POSSIBLE GO BACK.
THAT'S, WAS THERE ANOTHER QUESTION? YES.
UM, I'M SORRY, MY NAME IS JAMES.
WHAT I'M GONNA SAY, UH, GOING BACK TO JAMES AND, UM, WHERE WE START THE PROCESS IS, IT'S SOMETHING THAT P AND Z WOULD INITIATE OR, YOU KNOW, FROM TAKE ORDER FROM COUNCIL DURING THE, UH, COMPREHENSIVE, UM, PLAN.
OR IS THAT, I MEAN, WHEN DO YOU BEGIN THE PROCESS TO MAKE IT? I THINK, I THINK THEY'RE GONNA, THEY SHOULD, YOU KNOW, A COMPREHENSIVE REWRITE OF YOUR ZONING ORDINANCE SHOULD GO HAND IN HAND WITH A, WITH A REVIEW OF THE COMPREHENSIVE PLAN BECAUSE THEY, THEY NEED TO BE IN HARMONY WITH EACH OTHER, RIGHT? I MEAN, ULTIMATELY, UM, BECAUSE IF YOU HAVE A COMPREHENSIVE PLAN THAT'S WAY OFF FROM YOUR ZONING
BUT, YOU KNOW, THE, THE, YOU KNOW, THE, YOUR, YOUR ZONING ORDINANCE HAS STUFF IN IT THAT SHOULDN'T BE IN THERE.
AND IT'S GOT, YOU KNOW, IT'S, IT'S, IT'S JUST BEEN KIND OF A LITTLE BIT OF A HODGEPODGE OF THINGS BEING ADDED TO IT OVER THE YEARS, SO THAT THINGS THAT YOU WOULDN'T EXPECT TO BE IN THERE ARE IN THERE.
AND THAT MEANS, BECAUSE IT'S IN YOUR ZONING ORDINANCE, ANY AMENDMENT'S GOTTA GO THROUGH THE PMZ PROCESS.
IT'S GOTTA HAVE THAT PUBLIC HEARING.
IT'S GOTTA DO ALL THOSE THINGS.
AND, AND THEY'RE NOT REALLY ZONING.
THEY'RE NOT REALLY ZONING FOR SOME, SOME OF THOSE THINGS THAT ARE IN THERE.
SO I, THAT'S THE CLEANUP, AND THAT'S PART OF THE PURPOSES, I THINK OF THE, OF THE, UM, COMPREHENSIVE REVIEW AND CODE DIAGNOSTIC.
UM, SO I JUST WANTED TO, I, I, I WANTED, I PUT THIS IN HERE BECAUSE I WANTED YOU TO SEE KIND OF THE DIFFERENCE OF, OF HOW ONE OF, YOU KNOW, MY OTHER CITIES TREATS SPECIAL EXCEPTIONS.
AND SO YOU JUST, JUST TO SEE THE DIFFERENCE OF, OF WHAT THAT LOOKS LIKE.
AND THAT'S, HERE'S WHAT THEY SAY, UM, THEY PROVIDE SPECIFIC DIRECTION THAT IT'S GOTTA BE IN KEEPING, IT'S GOTTA SERVE THE PUBLIC WELFARE.
THAT'S, AS OPPOSED TO SAYING, YOU MAY GRANT IT, IF IT SAYS YOU CANNOT GRANT IT IF, AND IT'LL ADVERSELY AFFECT, IT'LL SUBSTANTIALLY PERMANENTLY INJURE, UH, YOU KNOW, APPROPRIATE USE OF ADJACENT PROPERTY.
IT'LL ALTER THE ESSENTIAL CHARACTER OF THE ZONING DISTRICT.
[01:30:01]
IMPORTANT BECAUSE ANY CHANGES TO A ZONING DESIGNATION, THE REQUIREMENTS OF A PARTICULAR ZONING DESIGNATION, UM, THE, THE LEGISLATIVE BODY IS THE ONE THAT GETS TO SET THOSE REQUIREMENTS.AND, AND FUNDAMENTALLY, THEY OUGHT TO BE MORE OR LESS, THEY OUGHT TO BE CONSISTENT.
THEY OUGHT TO BE MORE OR LESS THE SAME.
AND YOU ONLY CHANGE IT WHEN IT'S, IT'S, THERE'S A NECESSITY AND IT'S NOT A SELF-CREATED NECESSITY, REALLY, FUNDAMENTALLY.
SO THAT'S, THAT'S JUST, YOU KNOW, AND IF WE DO THOSE THINGS AND WE, WE, WE CREATE THE PROPER RECORD, UM, THEN, THEN IF YOU ARE CHALLENGED, THEN YOU STAND A GOOD CHANCE OF SURVIVING THAT CHALLENGE SUCCESSFULLY.
UM, AND, AND HERE'S, HERE'S THE OTHER SECTIONS.
HERE'S WHERE THEY MAY BE GRANTED FOR SPECIAL EXCEPTIONS.
UM, AND, AND YOU CAN, YOU CAN SEE THE, THE KIND OF, THE DIFFERENCE.
IT'S, IT'S NOT, YOU KNOW, IT'S NOT LIMITED TO HEIGHT.
IT CAN BE, IT CAN BE HEIGHT, IT COULD BE ANY NUMBER OF THINGS, BUT IT COULD BE A NON-CONFORMING USE.
UH, IT COULD BE THE RESUMPTION OF A NON-CONFORMING USE.
IT COULD BE TO PERMIT THE USE OF TRACKS ADJACENT TO ANOTHER, YOU KNOW? RIGHT.
IT'S A MUCH BROADER POWER THAN, THAN JUST LIMITED TO HEIGHT.
BUT IT SETS FORTH GUARDRAILS AND PARAMETERS UNDER WHICH THOSE THINGS CAN BE, UM, UH, ADOPT OR APPROVED.
UM, SO HERE'S THE LIST, RIGHT? REDUCE HOUSE, YOU KNOW, OKAY.
REDUCE OFF STREET PARKING, HOUSING DESIGNED FOR THE ELDERLY OR DISABLED ADAPTIVE REUSE, UH, EXPANSION OF NON-PROFITS, CONVERSION OF NON-CONFORMING USES, STRUCTURAL ALTERATION, UH, TO ELIMINATE, NOT, YOU KNOW, I MEAN, SO IT IS JUST, IT'S JUST A MUCH MORE BROAD AND, AND, UH, SPECIFIC PROCESS.
SO THAT'S, YOU KNOW, THAT, THAT, THAT'S JUST FOOD FOR THOUGHT AND FOR HOW YOURS KIND OF DIFFERS FROM, FROM WHAT IS MORE STANDARD IN OTHER CITIES.
UM, HERE'S YOUR VARIANCE PRO, YOUR VARIANCE PROCESS IS STRAIGHT OUTTA STATE LAW.
UM, THERE'S NOTHING UNUSUAL, UH, UH, ABOUT IT.
UH, IT HAS TO, YOU KNOW, THE APPLICATION OF THE ORDINANCE HAS TO RESULT IN AN UNNECESSARY HARDSHIP.
AND THAT UNNECESSARY IS REALLY KEY
AND THAT'S THE, YOU KNOW, AND SO THAT, THAT REALLY RAISES THE QUESTION OF, YOU KNOW, UH, I BOUGHT THIS A LOT, BUT, YOU KNOW, I WANT TO DO THIS THING.
I MEAN, IT WAS, YOU KNOW, I BOUGHT THIS LOT AND THESE THINGS WERE PROHIBITED, BUT LET ME DO IT.
UM, BECAUSE OF THE NATURE OF SOME OF THE LOTS HERE IN VISTA, THE LENGTHS, THE, THE LOTS ARE WHITER THAN THEY ARE LONG.
AND SO, AGAIN, WITH THE LARGER SETBACKS THAT WE HAVE, UM, IT'S VERY, VERY DIFFICULT FOR PEOPLE TO BE ABLE TO PUT IN A POOL.
YOU KIND OF FURTHER DO THAT IN HOW, HOW IS A POOL CLASSIFIED IF IT'S A STRUCTURE OR WHATEVER, THERE'S SOME AMBIGUITY I THINK I UNDERSTAND, AND FRANK IS GOING, YEAH.
I'M LOOKING AT FRANK GOING, YEAH.
IS THERE, AND SO WE HAVE VARIANCES FOR SWIMMING POOLS.
UM, HARD TO SAY THAT THAT IS A HARDSHIP.
THAT'S ALMOST LIKE AN AUTOMATIC NO, IN TERMS OF A, BUT IN THIS CASE, IF THEY WERE, IF THE LOT WAS LONGER, AND OF COURSE WHEN THEY, WHEN A LOT OF THESE INDIVIDUALS BOUGHT THEIR HOMES, THEY MAY NOT HAVE HAD A POOL IN MIND, RIGHT? AND SO NOW, YOU KNOW, THEY'VE GOT A FAMILY, THEY WANNA GO AHEAD AND PUT A POOL, AND, BUT THE LOT DOESN'T ACCOMMODATE IT AS IT IS.
AND SO NOW THEY ARE BEING BROUGHT FORTH AS VARIANCES.
SO I'M KIND OF JUST RUNNING THROUGH SCENARIOS OF A POOL.
WHAT IS THE BAR ACCORDING TO OUR ORDINANCES THAT ARE B OF A MUST CONSIDER WHEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT, UH, IN THIS CASE, IN OUR ORDINANCES, A POOL IS STRUCTURE.
POOLS, YOU KNOW, I MEAN, YOU GOTTA, IT'S ENGINEERED.
IT'S REALLY, I MEAN, IT'S, IT'S MORE IMPORTANT THAN PUTTING IN A LITTLE SHED, RIGHT.
YOU KNOW, TO HAVE IT PROPERLY ENGINEERED AND CONSTRUCTED AND LOCATED.
UM, BUT ONE THING THAT I WOULD, WOULD POINT OUT THOUGH, IS YOU TALKED, AND MAYBE I MISUNDERSTOOD, BUT I WANNA MAKE SURE I UNDERSTAND KIND OF THE, THE POINT YOU'RE MAKING, WHICH IS, WELL, A POOL IS A NICE AMENITY AND IT'S AN EXTRA, SO HOW COULD IT BE ANY KIND OF UNNECESSARY HARDSHIP? BUT THAT'S NOT, SEE THE, THE UTILITY OF THE, OF THE THING.
IS IT FOR FUN OR NOT FUN? OR IS IT, YOU KNOW, A, A A HOUSE FOR, YOU KNOW, YOUR, YOUR ELDERLY MOTHER WHO WANTS TO LIVE WITH YOU OR WHATEVER.
THE, I DON'T KNOW THAT THAT'S REALLY NECESSARILY JUST, JUST THE FACT THAT IT'S A POOL AND IT
[01:35:01]
MIGHT BE USED FOR, YOU KNOW, RECREATION DOESN'T MEAN THAT IT CAN'T MEET THE UNNECESSARY HARDSHIP, YOU KNOW, REQUIREMENT.THE UNNECESSARY HARDSHIP SHOULD BE THOUGHT OF AS, UM, YOU KNOW, IT, IT AM I, BUT FOR YOUR REALLY, REALLY LARGE SETBACKS, RIGHT? IT'S NOT UNUSUAL FOR PEOPLE TO HAVE POOLS AND TO HAVE, OR, OR WHAT OTHER, YOU KNOW, RECREATIONAL STRUCTURES IN THEIR, IN THEIR, YOU KNOW, SIDE YARD, BACKYARD IS, YOU KNOW, AS THE CASE MAY BE.
UM, AND, AND ARE YOU, AND HERE'S THE, YOU KNOW, FROM A LITIGATION LAND USE KIND OF EXPOSURE STANDPOINT, ARE YOU, ARE YOU UNNECESSARILY CIRCUMSCRIBING OR LIMITING A PERSON'S ABILITY TO BENEFICIALLY USE THEIR PROPERTY? I'M NOT, I'M NOT, I'M NOT TRYING TO PUT IN A DANCE HALL, RIGHT? OR A, YOU KNOW, MASSAGE PARLOR.
I'M PUTTING IN A POOL, AND WHAT'S THE PEOPLE PUT IN POOLS ALL THE TIME AND, AND, YOU KNOW, BECAUSE OF TERRAIN, BECAUSE YOU KNOW, MY, MY LOT IS CONFIGURED THE WAY THAT IT IS.
MY NEIGHBOR GETS ONE, AND I DON'T, RIGHT? THAT'S THE, THAT'S THE KIND OF THE ANALYSIS.
AND WHETHER IT'S FOR A POOL OR IT'S FOR WHATEVER, I DON'T THINK THAT THAT IS REALLY AS BIG A PART OF THE ANALYSIS AS THE BENEFICIAL USE OF MY PROPERTY, RIGHT? BECAUSE IF I DO THAT, WHAT'S GONNA HAPPEN? MY ARGUMENT, IF I'M THE PR IF I'M THE HOMEOWNER, IS I'M GONNA MAKE MY PROPERTY MORE VALUABLE.
YOU'RE GONNA GET MORE A VALOREM TAX OUT OF IT, RIGHT? THAT'S, THAT'S A BENEFIT TO YOU, THE CITY.
AND YOU'RE PROHIBITING ME FROM DOING THAT, RIGHT? AND WHY, BECAUSE YOU HAVE A BIG SETBACK, RIGHT? AND THAT'S, YOU KNOW, I'M KIND OF PLAYING DEVIL'S ADVOCATE HERE, BUT I MEAN, BUT THAT'S, THAT'S THE, THAT'S THE QUESTION THAT WE'D HAVE TO ANSWER IS WHY, WHY, WHY NOT? I MEAN, WE HAVE ALREADY ACKNOWLEDGED THAT WE HAVE A REALLY, REALLY BIG SETBACK, THE BIGGEST IN THE STATE, YOU KNOW? SO THAT'S, THAT'S WHAT WE, THAT'S THE ANALYSIS, AND THAT'S WHAT WE HAVE TO THINK ABOUT.
AND, AND, AND ARE WE, ARE WE PREVENTING A PROPERTY OWNER FROM THE FULL BENEFICIAL USE OF THEIR PROPERTY, JUST BY VIRTUE OF THE SHAPE OF THEIR LOT? AND I THINK THAT'S REALLY, THAT'S THE UNNECESSARY HARDSHIP ANALYSIS.
WHETHER WHATEVER IT IS, IF IT'S A, YOU KNOW, IF IT'S A, IF IT'S A STRUCTURE THAT'S OTHERWISE ALLOWED OR PERMISSIBLE AND, AND ADDS TO THE VALUE OF THE PROPERTY, WHAT'S, YOU KNOW, YES, SIR.
UH, ONE OF THE UNNECESSARY HARDSHIP TOOLS THAT SOME FOLKS USE IS WHAT IS, IF IT IS UNIQUE ABOUT THIS PROPERTY, IT'S NOT COMMON WITH OTHER PROPERTY.
THEY'VE GOT A UNIQUE SITUATION.
I THINK WHAT, WHAT YOU, WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THOUGH, IS PROBABLY A RULE CHANGE FOR SCHOOLS.
YOU SEE, THAT'S THE CONVERSATION WE'RE HAVING.
AGAIN, IT COMES BACK TO IT'S THE SAME, IT IS THE SAME.
IT'S REALLY FUNDAMENTALLY THE SAME ISSUE AS THE HYPE, RIGHT? IT'S BECAUSE YOU HAVE LARGE SETBACKS, WHICH NECESSARILY MEANS, OKAY, HERE'S HOW MUCH IMPERVIOUS COVER I CAN HAVE.
AND, AND THE WAY THAT I GET AROUND THAT IS I GO UP, BUT, YOU KNOW, I CAN'T GO ANY HIGHER THAN THIS.
SAME THING WITH A POOL, RIGHT? IT'S, YOU HAVE THESE SETBACKS THAT LIMITS THE AMOUNT OF IMPERVIOUS COVER THAT LIMITS THE AMOUNT OF BUILDABLE LAND ON MY PROPERTY.
I BOUGHT THIS ONE ACRE, BUT I CAN ONLY BUILD ON THIS TINY LITTLE SQUARE, RIGHT? AND, AND THAT'S A, THAT'S A QUESTION, RIGHT? BUT IF, BUT IF YOU, IF YOU EXPAND THE SIZE OF THE SQUARE THAT YOU CAN BUILD ON, THEN YOU HAVE FEWER, YOU HAVE LESS NEED FOR VARIANCES AND, AND POOLS ARE, YOU KNOW, PRETTY COMMON RESIDENTIAL STRUCTURES.
THEY'RE, YOU KNOW, SO THAT'S JUST, THAT'S, BUT THAT'S A POLICY QUESTION THAT Y'ALL NEED TO ANSWER, AND THAT NEEDS TO GO THROUGH THE PROCESS.
SO, YOU KNOW, I MEAN, YOU SOLVE SOME OF THOSE PROBLEMS IF YOU DON'T HAVE QUITE SUCH A BIG SETBACK.
BUT THAT'S A POLICY QUESTION TO ME.
PEOPLE WANT THEIR, YOU KNOW, THAT WE LIKE OUR TREES, WE LIKE OUR, YOU KNOW, GREENERY.
THAT'S A PERFECTLY LEGITIMATE COUNTER ARGUMENT AS WELL.
HELPS WITH DRAINAGE, HELPS WITH SOIL EROSION, HELPS WITH ALL OF THESE THINGS.
SO IF WE GO CUT DOWN ALL THESE THINGS, WHAT HAPPENS THEN? THAT'S WHY Y'ALL SIT UP THERE, AND I JUST TALK.
UM, SO JUST REMEMBER, FINANCIAL HARDSHIP IS NOT UNNECESSARY.
HARDSHIP, SELF-IMPOSED HARDSHIP IS NOT UNNECESSARY HARDSHIP.
AND IT, A VARIANCE IS NOT AUTHORIZED, MERELY, MERELY TO ACCOMMODATE THE HIGHEST AND BEST USE.
IT'S NOT, IT'S NOT JUST THAT, RIGHT? ON THE OTHER HAND, UM, UM, YOU KNOW, WE HAVE TO THINK ABOUT THIS BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, SELF-IMPOSED HARDSHIP, YOU COULD, THE ARGUMENT IS ALL COULD ALWAYS BE MADE.
WELL, YOU BOUGHT THAT LOT, SO IT'S KIND OF SELF-IMPOSED.
WELL, MAYBE, YOU KNOW, MAYBE NOT,
[01:40:01]
RIGHT? I DON'T KNOW.I MEAN, IT CAN VERY, YOU KNOW, IT JUST, IT'S, IT'S VERY FACT SPECIFIC.
SO IS THAT ALWAYS A SELF-IMPOSED HARDSHIP? BECAUSE IF, IF SELF, IF THAT'S THE DEFINITION OF SELF-IMPOSED, THEN NOBODY EVER GETS A VARIANCE BECAUSE YOU BOUGHT THAT LOT UNDER THESE REGULATIONS.
WELL, THEN YOU'VE GOT A, YOU'VE GOT A RULE, YOU DON'T HAVE A RULE THAT DOESN'T HAVE ANY EXCEPTIONS TO IT.
BUT YOU KNOW, THAT'S A GOOD WAY TO END UP IN COURT TOO.
UM, WHAT IS THIS? OKAY, UM, THIS WAS, UH, AN AMENDMENT TO, UH, 2 11 0 9.
UM, IN EXERCISING ITS AUTHORITY, A BOARD CAN CONSIDER THE FOLLOWING, HIS GROUNDS TO DETERMINE WHETHER COMPLIANCE WITH THE ORDINANCE AS APPLIED TO A STRUCTURE THAT IS A SUBJECT OF APPEAL, WILL RESULT IN UNNECESSARY HARDSHIP.
THESE ARE, UM, THESE ARE FACTORS THAT, THAT ARE, THAT GO TOWARDS, YOU KNOW, WE DOCUMENT THESE FACTORS ONE WAY OR ANOTHER, AND THAT HELPS YOU SUPPORT THE BASIS OF YOUR DECISION, RIGHT? IT, IT, IT'S MAY, SO YOU CAN CONSIDER THEM OR NOT.
UM, BUT, BUT IF YOU DO THAT AND YOU GO THROUGH THAT LAUNDRY LIST OF THINGS, AND THAT MAKES ITS WAY INTO YOUR FINAL WRITTEN DECISION, THEN YOU'RE INSULATING YOURSELF.
OR THE CITY FROM LIABILITY, UH, FINANCIAL COST TO COMPLIANCE, IS IT GREATER THAN 50% OF THE PRAISE VALUE, UH, VARIANCE APPLICANT WOULD PROVIDE THE FINANCIAL INFORMATION AS DETERMINED BY THE MOST RECENT, MOST RECENT APPRAISAL ROLE.
SO AGAIN, THESE ARE JUST THE, THESE GET VERY FACT SPECIFIC, BUT THOSE ARE SOME OF THE THINGS THAT, THAT, AGAIN, WHOSE BURDEN IS IT? IT'S THERE.
UH, IS COMPLIANCE WITH THE ZONING REQUIREMENT GONNA RESULT IN 25% LOSS OF BILLABLE AREA? UH, AGAIN, THEY PROVIDE THAT CALCULATION.
UM, COMPLIANCE WOULD RESULT IN A STRUCTURE NOT COMPLYING WITH ANOTHER ORDINANCE.
UH, THESE ARE, THESE ARE ALL OF THE THINGS, THE FACTORS THAT COULD GO INTO UNNECESSARY HARDSHIP.
AND, AND AGAIN, JUST, I, I THINK THE, THE, THE, WHAT I WANNA REMIND YOU OF IS THAT THE LEGISLATURE CONTINUES TO CIRCUMSCRIBE AND LIMIT CITY'S AUTHORITY TO ZONE, TO REGULATE, TO, TO DO ALL OF THOSE THINGS.
AND, UM, I THINK, YOU KNOW, BAD FACT, THERE'S THE, THE SAYING, YOU KNOW, BAD FACTS MAKE BAD LAW.
AND SO WHEN, WHEN, WHEN YOU HAVE THESE, THESE SYMPATHETIC SITUATIONS, AND YOU'VE HAD CITIES THAT HAVE OVERREACHED IN THE PAST OFTEN, UM, THEN, THEN THAT IS, THAT IS THE REASON WHY YOU SEE SOME OF THE LIMITATIONS THAT NOW APPLY ALL OF THIS, RIGHT? SO JUST, YOU KNOW, I MEAN, THAT IS, THAT IS A REALITY THAT WE HAVE TO KEEP IN MIND.
UM, AGAIN, WHAT ARE, WHAT'S UNNECESSARY HARDSHIP IF, IF, IF SOMETHING WOULD BECOME A NON-CONFORMING STRUCTURE? WE DON'T WANT NON-CONFORMITY IF WE HAVE TO COMPLY WITH THIS PART OF THE ZONING REGULATION.
UM, THE, THOSE ARE, THOSE ARE RARE, BUT, BUT THAT'S WHY YOU GIVE VARIANCES.
THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO BE SOMEWHAT RARE.
UM, THE VARIANCE CAN'T BE CONTRARY TO THE PUBLIC INTEREST.
IT CAN'T BE AGAINST THE SPIRIT OF THE ZONING ORDINANCE.
UM, GRANTING A VARIANCE IS NOT AUTOMATIC.
I GET THIS QUESTION ALL THE TIME.
IF WE GRANT THIS VARIANCE, DOES THAT SET A PRECEDENT FOR THAT? WE HAVE TO GRANT THE NEXT ONE? NO, IT DOES NOT.
UM, BUT, BUT IT DOESN'T CREATE A LEGAL PRECEDENT.
HOWEVER, UM, I HAVE, UM, ONE OF THE AREAS OF LAW THAT I HANDLE FOR OTHER CITIES ARE RELIGIOUS LAND USE CHALLENGES.
AND SO IF YOU HAVE GRANTED VARIANCES IN THE PAST FOR THIS TYPE OF USE AND A RELIGIOUS LAND USE, APPLICANT COMES IN AND WANTS TO DO SOMETHING THAT, THAT, UH, YOU KNOW, THEY CAN REQUEST, UM, REASONABLE ACCOMMODATIONS THAT A CITY HAS TO GRANT.
AND THAT'S, IT'S A LITTLE DIFFERENT FROM YOUR VARIANCE PROCESS.
BUT I'M DEALING WITH A CITY RIGHT NOW THAT DOESN'T WANT TO DO THAT BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT, THEY'RE NOT BIG FANS OF THIS PARTICULAR, UM, RELIGIOUS PROPOSED RELIGIOUS LAND USE.
IT'S A GOOD WAY TO GET YOURSELF SUED, RIGHT? AND GET BIG, BIG DOLLAR JUDGEMENTS AGAINST YOU.
SO, YOU KNOW, WE HAVE, WE, YOU KNOW, WE HAVE TO KEEP THOSE THINGS IN MIND.
I MEAN, YOU JUST, YOU KNOW, UH, WE CAN'T DO THINGS FOR ILLEGAL PURPOSES.
AND I KNOW THAT SOUNDS LIKE A, A TRUISM, BUT IT, YEAH, IT HAPPENS ALL THE TIME.
AND, YOU KNOW, SO LET'S AVOID THOSE KINDS OF LAWSUITS.
CAN WE GO BACK TO YOUR, THE SLIDE THAT HAD TO DO
[01:45:01]
WITH BE AWAY APPEALS? IT IS, AND IT'S, IT IS COME UP THE WAY THE ORDINANCE APPEARS TO ME TO READ WITH RESPECT TO APPEALS, UH, UH, ADMINISTRATIVE OFFICER.AND THAT BECOMES A VERY, THAT'S A, THAT'S A GOOD QUESTION, AND THAT'S A, THAT'S A SPECIFIC, UM, I RECALL.
SO IF YOU COULD, IF YOU COULD CATCH IT WITHIN 10 DAYS, WELL, HERE'S THE PRO HERE'S WHERE THAT, HERE'S WHERE THAT COMES IN, RIGHT? I THINK, BECAUSE AS I RECALL, SOMETIME IN THE LAST YEAR AND A HALF-ISH OR SO, THE CITY ADOPTED AN ORDINANCE THAT EXPANDED.
UH, I GET IT, BUT THE DEFINITION OF AGGRIEVED PERSON, RIGHT? SO THE BROADER, YOUR CLASSIFICATION OF AGGRIEVED PERSON IS THE BROADER, THE SCOPE OF WHO CAN CHALLENGE THAT BECOMES, THAT IMPOSES THAT COMES WITH A COST, THAT'S A LEGISLATIVE DECISION THAT THE BODY MAKES.
YOU HAVE THE AUTHORITY TO MAKE THAT DECISION.
AND IF YOU WANT TO DEFINE A GRIEVED PERSON AS EVERY RESIDENT OF THE CITY, I, I, I DON'T KNOW THAT THE LAW STOPS YOU FROM DOING THAT IF YOU WANT TO DO THAT.
UM, BUT IT COMES WITH A POTENTIAL COST, AND THAT'S A POLICY DECISION THAT, THAT THESE FINE FOLKS UP HERE GET TO MAKE.
BUT, BUT THAT IS THE, THAT IS THE NA THE POTENTIAL CONSEQUENCE IS THAT, UH, EVEN APPROVALS, I DON'T LIKE IT.
I'M GONNA CHALLENGE THAT APPROVAL, AND WE'RE GONNA GO THROUGH THE BOA PROCESS AND, AND THEN WE'RE GONNA CHALLENGE IT IN, YOU KNOW, STATE COURT AND SO FORTH.
SO YES, THAT IS A, I THINK THAT IS A PLAUSIBLE, UM, OUTCOME COM.
OKAY, SO I THINK THIS WAS IT, RIGHT? MEETING PROCEDURE, UM, YEAH.
SO, UH, BOA SERVES AS THE JUDGE.
UH, SO, YOU KNOW, UM, DON'T TALK TO APPLICANTS, DON'T GO VISIT THE SITE, DON'T GO DO YOUR OWN INVESTIGATION.
UM, YOU KNOW, YOU PROCEED AS IF IT'S A, LIKE, LIKE IT'S A TRIAL LE LIMIT, IT LIMIT YOUR CONSIDERATION TO WHAT IS PRESENTED AT THE HEARING.
UM, AND, AND THE, THE PERSON APPEALING HAS THE BURDEN OF PROOF, RIGHT? THAT'S, THAT'S THEIR BURDEN, WHOEVER IT IS THAT'S APPEALING.
UM, BUT, UM, BUT THAT'S AN IMPORTANT, THAT'S AN IMPORTANT ONE, YOU KNOW, IS, IS HOW I WANT TO GO CONDUCT THIS IN.
I WANNA GO CONDUCT THIS THING SO THAT I CAN BE FULLY INFORMED.
WELL,
DOES THAT ALSO PERTAIN TO A PMZ HEARING? I, UM, VISIT THE SITE.
I THINK THERE'S A, I THINK THERE'S A SEPARATE, I THINK THERE'S A SEPARATE PROVISION IN YOUR PMZ ORDINANCE THAT, UM, PERTAINS TO THAT.
AND I THINK IT'S PERMISSIBLE UNDER THAT BECAUSE IT SEEMS LIKE ONE OF 'EM SAYS SOMETHING TO THE EFFECT OF, YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO GO AND LOOK AT IT BEFORE THE HEARING.
OKAY? I THINK IT'S IN THE PNZ.
UM, I DON'T BELIEVE IT'S IN YOUR BOA PROCEDURE.
UH, I, BUT I'VE SEEN THAT, I KNOW I'VE SEEN THAT IN THE PNZ PROCEDURE, BECAUSE PNZ IS ONLY, UM, ADVISORY.
IT DOESN'T GIVE ME AS MUCH HEARTBURN.
BUT YOU KNOW, BY THE SAME TOKEN, IT'S ADVISORY.
SO THERE'S NO, IT'S NOT, IT'S NOT HARMFUL.
EVEN IF THERE WERE ERROR, IT'S NOT HARMFUL ERROR PROBLEM IS THAT IT COMES BACK TO, DO YOU ACCIDENTALLY DISQUALIFY YOURSELF? CAN SOMEONE RAISE THAT AS AN ISSUE? I GO AND I LOOK AT THE SITE AND THE, UH, THE APPLICANT TALKED TO ME AND DIDN'T TALK TO EVERYBODY ELSE.
SO ARE YOU JUST TALKING ABOUT THIS? IS THIS BOA TO DO WITH AN APPEAL? YEAH.
NOT, NOT A REGULAR CASE FOR A VARIANCE OR HEIGHTENED, THIS IS, YEAH, THAT'S AN APPEAL.
I, I, AS A QUASI-JUDICIAL BODY, YOU SHOULD BE CONSIDERING THE EVIDENCE THAT IS PRESENTED TO YOU AT THE HEARING.
I, I'M NOT TELLING, I'M NOT, I DON'T THINK YOUR ORDINANCE, UM, I DON'T THINK YOUR ORDINANCE PROHIBITS IT.
I'D HAVE TO GO, I DON'T, I DON'T BELIEVE IT PROHIBITS IT, BUT I'M TELLING YOU, THE BEST PRACTICE AND THE SAFEST COURSE IS
[01:50:01]
TO CONSIDER ONLY THE EVIDENCE THAT'S PRESENTED TO YOU.BECAUSE IF YOU HAVE ACCESS TO EVIDENCE THAT OTHER MEMBERS DON'T HAVE ACCESS TO, AND, AND, AND EVERYBODY IS AN AGGRIEVED PERSON THAT CAN CHALLENGE A DECISION, I, I'M JUST CONSISTENCY.
THAT'S HOW YOU KNOW, AGAIN, THESE ARE RECOMMENDATIONS.
I KNOW FOR 10 YEARS WE WERE TOLD TO GO OUT.
YOU GOT A HEIGHT ACCEPTION CASE.
IF YOU GOT A VARIANCE, IT, IT'S, IT'S PART OF YOUR JOB TO GO OUT AND LOOK AT THE SITE.
I THINK, UM, WELL, I HAVE TO GO BACK AND DOUBLE CHECK YOUR, YOUR ORDINANCE.
I KNOW I'VE SEEN THAT IN P AND Z.
THAT MAY BE ALSO THE CASE IN THE HEIGHT.
I DON'T KNOW THAT IT'S THE CASE IN VARIANCES.
UM, YOU ALREADY KNOW HOW I FEEL ABOUT YOUR HEIGHT, SPECIAL EXCEPTION.
SO, UM, SO THAT WOULD JUST BE ONE MORE, ONE MORE, UH, FACTOR.
BUT AGAIN, I MEAN, THIS IS JUST, THESE ARE BEST, THIS, THIS, THIS IS BEST PRACTICE.
YOU'RE GONNA ACT AS A QUASI-JUDICIAL BODY.
THE JUDGES DON'T, THAT'S WHY EX PARTE COMMUNICATIONS WITH JUDGES ARE PROHIBITED.
YOU'RE, IT'S NOT PERFECTLY ANALOGOUS, BUT THE SAME GENERAL PRINCIPLES PROBABLY SHOULD APPLY BECAUSE IT HELPS INSULATE THE CITY FROM CHALLENGES.
THAT'S, THAT'S MY, YOU KNOW, THAT'S, THAT'S MY MANTRA OVER AND OVER AGAIN IS TO TRY AND, YOU KNOW, REDUCE THEM THE AMOUNT OF TIMES THE CITY GETS SUED.
SO, UM, AND I THINK THAT'S THE BEST PRACTICE.
UM, YOU KNOW, GOING OUT AND EYEBALLING THE SITE, YOU KNOW, THEY CAN BRING, LIKE YOU SAID, YOU CAN DO, THEY CAN DO THE DRONE STUFF, THEY CAN DO SURVEYS.
THEY CAN PROVIDE YOU WITH THOSE, THOSE THAT DOCUMENTATION.
SO I DON'T KNOW THAT EYEBALLING IT, I MEAN, I GET IT, YOU KNOW, I MEAN, THAT'S PART OF AN INVESTIGATION.
BUT YOU'RE NOT AN INVESTIGATOR.
SO IT'S, IT'S JUDGMENT, YOU KNOW, BUT JUST BEAR IN MIND THAT IF YOU DO, YOU GO DO THAT AND YOU FIND YOURSELF IN A SITUATION WHERE YOU'RE TALKING TO THE APPLICANT BY YOURSELF, BUT SOMEBODY SEE, YOU KNOW, SOMEBODY CHALLENGES THAT.
UM, SO AGAIN, THIS IS JUST YOUR NOTICE AND HEARING PROCEDURE.
YOU'RE GONNA HAVE PUBLIC HEARINGS.
YOU HAVE THAT 60 TO, UM, 180 DAY, UM, WINDOW IN WHICH TO HEAR THOSE THINGS.
AND VARIANCES ARE RECORDED IN DEED RECORDS.
UM, THIS IS JUST THE PROCEDURE, RIGHT? THIS IS THE PROCESS THAT YOU OUGHT TO FOLLOW.
UH, AND, AND THIS LOOKS LIKE, YOU KNOW, LIKE A TRIAL.
UM, AGAIN, RULES OF OF EVIDENCE DON'T STRICTLY APPLY.
UH, IT IS IMPORTANT IN THAT CONTEXT FOR THE CHAIR TO CONTROL THE FLOW OF THE MEETING.
UM, AND, AND AS THE CHAIR, YOU KNOW, YOU, YOU, YOU KNOW, YOU, YOU SET TIME LIMITS, YOU SET, YOU KNOW, UH, THE PARAMETERS, UM, YOU KNOW, THESE THINGS CAN GET, UM, CAN GO OFF THE RAILS IF YOU DON'T, IF, IF THE CHAIR DOESN'T KINDA CAN CONTROL THE MEETING AT SOME POINT, I'VE SEEN THAT HAPPEN AS WELL.
SO I THINK THAT'S REALLY IT, IT'S IMPORTANT FOR THE CHAIR TO EXERCISE THAT, THAT TYPE OF CONTROL WHEN NECESSARY SO THAT YOU DON'T HAVE THESE THINGS.
JUST TURN INTO THESE SPRAWLING YELLING MATCHES AND BACK AND FORTH, BECAUSE THEN NOBODY'S UNDERSTANDING ANYTHING.
UM, PUBLIC, AGAIN, PUBLIC TOMA, PUBLIC COMMENT, PUBLIC COMMENT, ALWAYS HAVE TO HAVE IT.
UM, BOARD CAN ASK QUESTIONS, THAT'S FINE.
UH, THIS IS A LITTLE HARD TO READ.
UH, BEFORE WE OPEN THE PUBLIC HEARING, ARE THERE ANY REQUESTS FOR POSTPONEMENT OR JURISDICTIONAL ISSUES ANYONE WOULD LIKE TO RAISE? UH, YOU ADMINISTER THE OATH.
DO YOU SWEAR THAT THE TESTIMONY YOU GIVE AND SO FORTH, ALL OF THAT, I MEAN, THOSE ARE JUST STANDARD THINGS.
YOU, KAT, HAVE THIS AS A CHEAT SHEET IN FRONT OF YOU.
UM, IF YOU DON'T HAVE, AGAIN, WE CAN PROVIDE THESE SLIDES TO, YOU KNOW, EVERYBODY.
UM, UM, YOU, THE BOARD CAN MEET WITH THE ATTORNEY AND EXECUTIVE SESSION TAKES FOUR VOTES TO GRANT.
UH, DECISION MUST BE REDUCED TO WRITING AND FINDINGS OF FACT AS PART OF THE RECORD.
THE ENTIRE RECORD SHOULD BE PRESERVED IN CASE OF AN APPEAL.
AND THOSE FINDINGS OF FACT ARE REALLY IMPORTANT.
UH, YOU NEED TO WORK WITH, UH, LEGAL COUNSEL AND, YOU KNOW, STAFF TO GET THAT ALL DOWN.
UH, THE MINUTES HAVE TO INDICATE THE, THE, THE VOTE OF EACH MEMBER.
UM, AND, UH, THE RECORDS ARE KEPT OF, OF THE EXAMINATIONS, THE OTHER OFFICIAL ACTIONS.
SO, SO, YOU KNOW, THE MEETING RECORDING, UH, THE AUDIO VIDEO RECORDING WILL COVER ALL OF THAT.
BUT THE MINUTES ARE WHAT ARE, ARE, ARE WHAT DEMONSTRATES HOW THE BODY ACTED.
SO IT IS IMPORTANT THOSE BE ADEQUATE AND REFLECT ALL OF THE NECESSARY INFORMATION.
EVEN THOUGH IT'S ALL RECORDED, IT STILL HAS, IT HAS TO BE IN THE MINUTES.
[01:55:01]
'CAUSE THAT'S THE OFFICIAL RECORD HAS TO GO TO DISTRICT COURT.ANY PERSON AGGRIEVED BY THE DECISION APPLICANT OR A TAXPAYER CAN APPEAL.
UM, BUT IT'S A VERY SHORT STATUTE OF LIMITATIONS.
YOU MISS THAT AND THERE IS NO APPEAL 10 DAYS.
SO THE BOARD'S PRESENT DECISION CARRIES THE PRESUMPTION OF VALIDITY AND THE PARTY CHALLENGING.
IT HAS TO ESTABLISH ILLEGALITY.
UH, AND THE PARTY ATTACKING THE ORDER MUST SHOW A VERY CLEAR SHOWING OF ABUSE, OF DISCRETION, AND THAT THE BOARD ACTED ARBITRARILY AND UNREASONABLY.
THAT'S WHY FINDINGS OF FACT AND ALL THOSE CONCLUSIONS ARE SO IMPORTANT TO BE REDUCED.
AND, YOU KNOW, WE WORK TOGETHER TO, TO GET THAT DOWN, UH, SO THAT WE DON'T, UM, SO IT'S NOT MISSING FROM THE RECORD AGAIN, UM, TELL ALL APPLIES.
UH, WELL, I'M GONNA GO THROUGH TELL IN A MINUTE, UH, SEPARATELY.
SO I'M, I'M JUST GONNA, YOU KNOW, SKIP THROUGH THIS.
BUT, BUT JUST REMEMBER, UM, IF YOU CONDUCT PUBLIC BUSINESS ON YOUR PERSONAL DEVICES, THAT PUBLIC BUSINESS IS BELONGS TO THE CITY, RIGHT? IT, IT, YOU KNOW, THERE, AND THAT'S STATE LAW.
THAT'S, YOU KNOW, WHAT THE STATE LAW SAYS, YOU BECOME A TEMPORARY CUSTODIAN.
IF, IF THERE'S A-T-P-I-A REQUEST AND IT'S RESPONSIVE, YOU GOTTA TURN IT OVER.
UM, SO JUST SO THE, THE, THE, THE, THE, THE, THE MORAL OF THAT STORY IS, UM, YOU KNOW, OUT OF MY COLD DEAD HANDS ARE, YOU'RE GONNA PULL MY PHONE.
BUT IF IT'S PUBLIC, DON'T DO IT ON YOUR, ON YOUR PERSONAL DEVICES, RIGHT? I MEAN, THAT'S, YOU KNOW, UM, MOTIONS, UH, ARE THE, YOU KNOW, AGAIN, THIS IS STANDARD, UM, YOU KNOW, KIND OF, UH, RULES OF PROCEDURE AND, AND ROSENBERG RULES TYPE STUFF.
THIS IS SOMETHING THAT I HAD DISCUSSION BEFORE, FOLKS, BUT THE FACT THAT IF YOU'RE ON A COMMISSION, YOU'RE NOT AN EMPLOYEE MM-HMM
YOU, AND YOU ARE PRETTY MUCH FORCED TO USE YOUR OWN DEVICE AS IN A COMPUTER, TO BE ABLE TO ACCESS THE CITY EMAIL IS, IS A HARDSHIP.
IT IT, IT IS, IT IS ONE OF THE ELEMENTS OF, YOU KNOW, YOUR DECISION TO VOLUNTEER, RIGHT? I MEAN, I GET IT.
AND AS A PRACTICAL MATTER, MOST CITIES AREN'T GONNA HAVE THE, THE WHEREWITHAL TO PROVIDE.
YOU KNOW, BUT THAT'S THE FLIP SIDE.
I MEAN, BUT, BUT, BUT, BUT YOU KNOW, THE TECH, THE PUBLIC INFORMATION ACT IS CLEAR.
UM, AND IF YOU, IF YOU CONDUCT PUBLIC BUSINESS ON A PERSONAL DEVICE, THE DEVICE ITSELF IS YOURS.
BUT THE, THE ITEMS THAT ARE THE SUBJECT OF THE PERSONAL OF THE PROF, UH, UM, PUBLIC BUSINESS TECHNICALLY BELONG TO THE GOVERNMENTAL ENTITY.
BUT THE GOVERNMENTAL ENTITY CAN SEE YOUR DEVICE TO GIVE NO, IT CAN'T.
SO THAT'S ALL THEY CAN DO IS JUST SAY, REQUEST IT, REQUEST THAT YOU LOOK FOR IT, GIVE IT TO ME.
NOW THAT SAID, I'M NOT THE ONE, THE CITY ISN'T THE ONE WHO ENFORCES UNDER TPIA, RIGHT? ALL THE CITY CAN DO, YOU KNOW, IS TO SAY TO THE TEMPORARY CUSTODIAN, AND WE'RE GONNA GO THROUGH THIS, ALL THE CITY CAN DO IS SAY, HEY, TEMPORARY CUSTODIAN, WE'VE GOTTEN THIS REQUEST.
IF YOU HAVE RESPONSIVE DOCUMENTS, YOU NEED TO GIVE THEM TO US WITHIN X AMOUNT OF TIME.
AND YOU SAY, I DON'T HAVE ANY, IT'S FINE.
OKAY? I DON'T, YOU KNOW, I'M NOT GONNA BE THE, I'M NOT GONNA LOOK AT YOUR PHONE.
THE TPIA GIVES ME NO METHOD TO COMPEL THAT TO HAPPEN.
BUT THE REQUESTOR CAN SAY, HEY, AG, I BELIEVE THAT THIS TEMPORARY CUSTODIAN IS WITHHOLDING INFORMATION, AND THEN YOU'RE GETTING INVESTIGATED BY THE AG.
WE HAVE NOTHING TO CITY HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THAT.
WE DON'T, THAT IS, THAT IS GOVERNED BY AND INITIATED BY A REQUESTOR WHO FILES A COMPLAINT.
UM, AGAIN, THE, THE, YOU KNOW, REVIEW THESE, REVIEW THESE AS CHEAT SHEETS OR, YOU KNOW, KEEP IN HIS NOTES IF YOU NEED THEM.
THIS IS JUST, YOU KNOW, KIND OF RULES OF PROCEDURE, RIGHT? YOU KNOW, UH, RULES OF ORDER, NOT ROBERT'S RULES OF WORK.
'CAUSE YOU ALL DON'T USE USE ROSENBERG'S.
BUT THESE ARE JUST, YOU KNOW, STANDARD RULES OF ORDER FOR HOW YOU MAKE MOTIONS OR A MAIN, YOU KNOW, AND SO FORTH.
SO THAT'S, UH, I'M NOT GONNA READ THROUGH THAT.
UM, ALL RIGHT, ANY QUESTION, ANY MORE QUESTIONS ABOUT, UM, BOA? OKAY.
[02:00:06]
ALL RIGHT.WE'VE GONE THROUGH, WE'VE GONE THROUGH SOME OF THIS ALREADY, SO I DON'T WANT TO, I DON'T WANNA BELABOR IT TOO MUCH.
UM, IF THERE'S ANY QUESTIONS THOUGH, LET ME KNOW.
UM, REALLY WHAT IS, WHAT I WANNA FOCUS ON ARE, UM, THE, UH, YOU KNOW, WE GOTTA HAVE ADEQUATE NOTICES.
WE GOTTA HAVE THE ADEQUATE RECORD, RECORD KEEPING, BUT REALLY WHAT I WANNA FOCUS ON ARE, ARE THE THING THAT THAT GETS PEOPLE IN TROUBLE, UM, ARE, ARE, UM, YOU KNOW, UNINTENTIONAL, BUT, BUT THE WALKING QUORUM THING, AND THAT'S, THAT'S JUST, YOU KNOW, WHERE, AND, AND YOU GUYS HAVE A TOOL, THE LEGISLATURE PROVIDED FOR IT.
EVERYBODY, THEY ALL BOARD, ALL THE COUNCIL AND ALL BOARDS AND COMMISSIONS, NOT HAVE THEIR OWN DISCUSSION BOARDS.
AND, AND LAGO, VISTA'S GOT THEM.
THAT'S WHERE YOU GO TO CONDUCT ALL THIS STUFF, BECAUSE THEN THAT'S YOUR, IF YOU CONDUCT IT ALL THERE, THAT'S PERMISSIBLE.
YOU CONDUCT IT IN EMAILS OR FACEBOOK OR WHATEVER THE CASE MAY BE.
THAT'S, THAT'S YOUR, YOUR, YOUR RUNNING RISKS.
UM, SO THE ACT WAS PASSED ON THE PREMISE THAT CITIZENS ARE ENTITLED NOT ONLY TO KNOW WHAT THE GOVERNMENT DECIDES, BUT TO OBSERVE HOW EACH DECISION IS REACHED.
SO THAT'S THE PURPOSE, AND IT'S INTENTIONALLY BROAD.
EVERY REGULAR, SPECIAL CALLED MEETING, IT APPLIES WHEN THERE'S A GOVERNMENTAL BODY AND THAT BODY IS MEETING.
AND, AND REALLY FUNDAMENTALLY, THE, UH, SOME OF THE QUESTIONS WERE, WHEN DOES TOMO APPLY? CITIES CAN CREATE SUBCOMMITTEES, AND AS LONG AS THAT SUBCOMMITTEE IS, IS IS LESS THAN A QUORUM, THEN TOMA DOESN'T APPLY.
IF, IF, IF, UM, TOMA APPLIES TO, TO, UM, ANY, ANY ENTITY THAT HAS ANY SUB ENTITY OF THE CITY THAT HAS SOME DECISION AUTHORITY, BUT THAT ALSO INCLUDES P AND Z, EVEN THOUGH YOU ONLY MAKE, UM, YOU KNOW, P AND Z MAKES ONLY, UM, RECOMMENDATIONS, UH, BECAUSE TOOMA APPLIES BY STATUTE.
UM, TOOMA IS NOT INTENDED TO APPLY TO JUST PURELY ADVISORY, UM, AD HOC COMMITTEES OR, OR SUBCOMMITTEES OF, OF LESS THAN A, LESS THAN A QUORUM OF AN EXISTING BODY.
UM, UM, BUT, BUT A CITY CAN, UH, PASS, CAN ADOPT A, A REQUIREMENT THAT TO APPLIES TO EVERYTHING.
I MEAN, YOU CAN, YOU CAN APPLY IT AS CITY CAN APPLY IT AS MUCH AS THEY WANT.
UM, BUT IT MUST APPLY UNDER THOSE CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES.
UM, IT'S A CITY COUNCIL, THE DEPARTMENT AND AGENCY OF SUBDIVISION THAT HAS AUTHORITY TO PROMULGATE POLICY MAKING RULES OR DECIDE CONTESTED CASES.
UM, AND, AND IT APPLIES TO, YOU KNOW, EDCS AND BOARDS COMMITTEES THAT, THAT HAVE THAT AUTHORITY.
UM, UH, GENERALLY SPEAKING, A QUORUM IS, UH, A MAJORITY OF THE GOVERNMENTAL BODY UNLESS OTHERWISE DEFINED.
UM, SO WE'VE GOT TYPE A, TYPE B, TYPE C CITIES THAT DOESN'T APPLY.
NONE OF THAT STUFF APPLIES FOR HOME RULE CITIES.
AND WE'VE HAD THAT QUESTION COME UP HERE.
'CAUSE OF THE WAY YOUR CHARTER IS WRITTEN, UM, THE CITY'S CHARTER DIFFERS A LITTLE BIT FROM STATE LAW.
UM, BUT I WOULD, I WOULD ADVISE EVERYONE THAT IF, IF, FOR, FOR LAGO VISTA, IF IT'S, IF IT'S, UM, JUST, EVEN IF IT'S JUST FOUR COUNCIL MEMBERS WHO ARE NOT, YOU KNOW, THE, THE, THE, THE MAYOR PRO TEM OR THE MAYOR IS JUST FOUR, UH, COUNCIL MEMBERS UNDER TOOMA, TOMAS GONNA SAY THAT'S A QUORUM.
STATE LAW'S GONNA SAY THAT'S A QUORUM.
SO, UM, NOW THAT DON'T, THAT DOESN'T APPLY AND WE'LL GET TO THAT, THAT DOESN'T APPLY TO PURELY SOCIAL FUNCTIONS AND, YOU KNOW, SO FORTH AND SO ON.
BUT, BUT, YOU KNOW, YOUR CHARTER HAS THAT, UH, COUNCIL MEMBERS PLUS A MAYOR OR PLUS A PRO TEM, AND, AND IT KIND OF INCLUDES THAT IT, IT REQUIRES THE ATTENDANCE OF THE MAYOR OR THE MAYOR PRO TEM AS PART OF THAT, AS THAT FOUR.
UM, BUT AGAIN, OUT OF AN ABUNDANCE OF CAUTION, I WOULD SAY THAT IF IT'S FOR JUST REGULAR COUNCIL MEMBERS STATE LAW'S GOING TO KEN PAXTON'S GONNA CALL OUT A QUORUM, AND THAT'S WHAT COUNTS, RIGHT? SO AT LEAST FOR A LITTLE WHILE, UNTIL MAY, PROBABLY MAY AS MIDDLETON.
UM, IF, UH, SO A MEETING, OF COURSE, WHEN THE QUORUM AND PUBLIC BUSINESS IS DISCUSSED, AND THAT INCLUDES WHEN MEMBERS RECEIVE INFORMATION FROM, GIVE INFORMATION TO ASK QUESTIONS OF, OR RECEIVE QUESTIONS FROM ANY THIRD PARTY, INCLUDING
[02:05:01]
AN EMPLOYEE OF THE GOVERNMENTAL BODY.SO THAT'S A, THAT'S, THAT'S A PRETTY BROAD DEFINITION.
THAT'S, THAT'S PUBLIC BUSINESS.
THAT'S A MEETING, THAT'S A QUORUM.
IF IT'S, IF IT'S THE FOUR OR MORE, UM, THE RULES WERE LOOSENED UP DURING COVID.
THOSE HAVE BEEN PULLED BACK, UM, TELEPHONE MEETINGS.
NOW IT'S GOTTA BE AN EMERGENCY, UM, UH, EMERGENCY OR PUBLIC NECESSITY.
AND, YOU KNOW, YOU'VE GOTTA MEET THE QUO, THE QUO.
YOU'VE GOTTA MEET THE REQUIREMENTS FOR AN EMERGENCY MEETING, WHICH ARE, YOU KNOW, CALAMITY, YOU KNOW, WAR, UM, YOU KNOW, UH, ZOMBIE APOCALYPSE, WHATEVER THE CASE MAY BE.
I MEAN, IT, IT HAS TO BE A TRUE EMERGENCY.
AND CITIES HAVE GOTTEN IN TROUBLE FOR, UH, DEFINING THINGS AS AN EMERGENCY WHEN IT'S NOT REALLY AN EMERGENCY.
LIKE, OOPS, WE MISSED A DEADLINE.
WE HAVE TO ADOPT A BUDGET BY THIS TIME THAT'S AN OR.
NOW, COURT SAID, NO, THAT'S
UM, VIDEO CONFERENCE MEETINGS ARE STILL PERMISSIBLE AS LONG AS A QUORUM OF THE BODY IS PHYSICALLY PRESENT IN ONE, IN A LOCATION, AND IT'S BEEN, YOU KNOW, PROPERLY NOTICED, THEN SOMEONE MAY VIDEO CONFERENCE IN.
BUT IF THEY VIDEO CONFERENCE IN, THEY HAVE TO BE VISIBLE AND AUDIBLE TO THE PUBLIC AT ALL TIMES.
I MEAN, IF YOU'RE, IF YOUR, IF YOUR VIDEO GOES OUT, YOU'RE NO LONGER PARTICIPATING IN THE MEETING.
IF YOU ARE, IF THAT'S WHAT CONSTITUTED THE QUORUM, THEN THE QUORUM HAS EVAPORATED.
AND YOU CAN'T, YOU GOTTA STOP THE MEETING AND, YOU KNOW, MAYBE YOU CAN FIX IT OR YOU CAN RECONVENE WITHIN 24 HOURS, BUT YOU GOTTA STOP.
IF YOU HAVE THE PHYSICAL, YOU SHOULD HAVE THE PHYSICAL QUORUM.
YOU GOTTA HAVE, WAIT A SECOND, YOU GOTTA HAVE THE PHYSICAL QUORUM PRESENT IN THE FIRST PLACE.
BUT LET'S SAY, I DON'T WANNA GO DOWN THAT ROAD, NEVERMIND, JUST, I'M, I'M NOT GONNA DO THESE, THESE, THESE
SO LET'S JUST, IF YOU, IF YOU ARE, IF YOU'RE ON VIDEO CONFERENCE, YOU GOTTA BE AUDIO, UH, PRESENT AND I MEAN, VISIBLE AND AUDIBLE.
AND IF YOU'RE NOT, YOU'RE NO LONGER PARTICIPATING IN THE MEETING PERIOD.
SOCIAL FUNCTIONS, WORKSHOPS, CANDIDATE FORUMS FOR APPEARANCE OR DEBATE CEREMONIAL EVENTS OR PRESS CONFERENCES PROVIDED THAT NO ACTION IS TAKEN AND THERE'S NO DISCUSSION.
UM, YOU KNOW, THE DISCUSSION OF ANY PUBLIC BUSINESS IS JUST INCIDENTAL, AND THERE'S NOT THE KIND OF NORMAL BACK AND FORTH THAT YOU HAVE AS A COUNCIL.
YOU KNOW, UM, WE'RE GONNA OPEN UP THE NEW POOL, RIGHT? WELL, THE NEW POOL IS, I'M NOT SAYING YOU HAVE A NEW POOL, BUT I'M JUST
BUT, UM, YOU KNOW, EVERYBODY CAN BE THERE.
TECHNICALLY SPEAKING, THIS PUBLIC FACILITY IS PUBLIC BUSINESS, BUT IT WAS JUST, YAY, WE'RE HERE TO CUT THE RIBBON.
UM, BUT DON'T START TALKING ABOUT BUDGETING AND
UM, HERE'S THE ONLINE MESSAGE BOARDS.
UM, UH, YOU CAN, YOU CAN DO THAT.
UM, AND IT HAS TO BE PROMINENT DISPLAYED.
YOU GUYS ARE IN, YOU KNOW, COMPLIANCE WITH ALL THAT KINDA STUFF MAY ONLY BE USED BY COUNCIL MEMBERS OR THEIR EMPLOYEES WHO POST THEIR NAME AND TITLE.
THAT'S BEEN, YOU KNOW, LIMITED.
BUT HERE AT THE BOTTOM, REMEMBER, IF THE CITY REMOVES A POSTING FOR SOME REASON, IT STILL HAS TO RETAIN THAT POSTING IN ITS RECORDS FOR SIX YEARS.
WELL, THAT'S STATUTORY, UM, WRITTEN NOTICE OF THE HOUR, DATE, TIME, PLACE, AND SUBJECT FOR OPEN AND CLOSED SESSIONS.
IT HAS TO APRIS THE GENERAL PUBLIC OF THE SUBJECT MATTER.
BUT IT, UM, SO IF YOU JUST SAY PERSONNEL OR YOU JUST SAY NEW BUSINESS, OLD BUSINESS, THOSE ARE, THOSE ARE GONNA BE HELD TO BE INSUFFICIENT BY A COURT.
AND THOSE ARE CASES THAT HAVE, YOU KNOW, LONGSTANDING CASES.
UM, UM, YOU HAVE TO AT LEAST IDENTIFY THE NATURE OF WHAT IT IS.
NOW WHAT YOU DON'T HAVE TO DO IS TO ADVISE THE PUBLIC OF, OF THE, OF EVERY CONSEQUENCE THAT COULD COME OUT OF THAT.
UM, BUT YOU DO HAVE TO PROVIDE SUFFICIENT NOTICE AND REMEMBER, THE MORE IMPORTANT AN ISSUE IS TO THE PUBLIC, THE MORE SPECIFIC THE NOTICE NEEDS TO BE.
AND SO, YOU KNOW, IT'S NEVER, I'LL JUST TELL YOU, IT IS JUST, IT'S NEVER A GOOD IDEA TO TRY TO BE OBSCURE IN YOUR NOTICE
YOU KNOW, THAT WILL, THAT CAN GET YOU IN TROUBLE.
IN PUBLIC FORUM, PUBLIC COMMENT, THAT SHOULD, YOU KNOW, THAT SHOULD BE ON A, ON A, ON AN AGENDA.
UH, IF IT'S NOT, IT, AGAIN, THE, THE ACT REQUIRES THAT YOU ALLOW PUBLIC, YOU KNOW, YOU SHALL ALLOW PUBLIC COMMENT ON EVERYTHING.
[02:10:01]
UM, SO ALWAYS DO THAT, BUT BE SURE AND HAVE THAT, THAT PUBLIC COMMENT ON, ON YOUR AGENDAS.UM, INDIVIDUAL NOTICE IS NOT THE PURPOSE OF TOMA NOTICE IS NOT TO PROVIDE DUE PROCESS, PERSONAL NOTICE TO AN INDIVIDUAL.
IT IS TO PUT THE GENERAL PUBLIC ON NOTICE, THE, YOU KNOW, AN ITEM.
UM, AND I'VE HAD, YOU KNOW, LITIGATION OVER THAT.
AND SO IT'S, IT'S, REMEMBER IT'S THREE BUSINESS DAYS AND, BUT, BUT THE, THE SCOPE OF IT IS, DOES IT PUT THE GENERAL PUBLIC ON NOTICE, GENERALLY SPEAKING OF WHAT YOU'RE GONNA BE DOING AND DISCUSSING.
UM, OKAY, HERE'S EMERGENCY MEETINGS, IMMINENT THREAT TO PUBLIC HEALTH AND SAFETY, AND A REASONABLY UNFOR OR A REASONABLY UNFORESEEABLE SITUATION.
AND IT CAN BE ONE HOUR NOTICE YOU GOT A, UH, FIRE, YOU KNOW, IT'S FIRES, FLOODS, EARTHQUAKES, HURRICANES, POWER FAILURES, EPIDEMICS, RIOTS, UM, AGAIN, WE FORGOT TO POST.
UM, UH, WE NEED TO TAKE, UM, UH, ONE OF THE OTHERS, UH, THAT, THAT, THAT, THAT COMES TO MIND.
THAT WAS A CASE WAS, UH, PERSONNEL ACTION.
AND, UH, THE, WE, WE, WE, WE HAVE TO TAKE PERSONAL ACTION IMMEDIATELY, AND THE COURT SAID, NO, YOU CAN, YOU CAN PUT THIS PERSON ON LEAVE.
YOU CAN DO ALL THOSE KIND OF THINGS, BUT YOU STILL HAVE TO COMPLY WITH THE, UM, IN THAT CASE, IT WAS 72 HOURS AT THE TIME, YOU KNOW, NOTICE.
SO, UM, SO, YOU KNOW, IF, IF THERE'S A QUESTION THAT'S, YOU KNOW, GET, GET, YOU KNOW, LEGAL COUNSEL INVOLVED, BUT IT, BUT EMERGENCY MEETINGS ARE, I'VE BEEN, I'VE BEEN DOING THIS FOR CITIES FOR 25 YEARS, AND I'VE NEVER BEEN TO AN EMERGENCY MEETING, SO THEY'RE PRETTY RARE.
UH, YOU MAY RECESS TO THE FOLLOWING BUSINESS DAY.
UM, LIKE FOR EXAMPLE, IF, UH, IT GETS TO BE TWO IN THE MORNING,
UM, THE, YOU CAN RECEIVE REPORTS ON ITEMS OF COMMUNITY INTEREST.
YOU DO A REAL GOOD JOB OF THAT KIND OF STUFF.
UM, I THINK THE ONLY THING THAT I WOULD ADVISE YOU OF IS, IS IF YOU DO STAFF REPORTS, UM, I THINK SOMETIMES IF WE KNOW THAT WE'RE GONNA HAVE STAFF REPORTS FROM FINANCE OR FROM PD OR FROM, YOU KNOW, WHATEVER, THEN I THINK IT'S SUFFICIENT TO GO STAFF REPORT AND THEN FINANCE AND THEN PD AND WHATEVER.
I THINK IF WE JUST GO STAFF REPORT AND WE GET INTO BUDGET AND WE START TO GET TOO FAR DOWN THAT ROAD, THEN I THINK THERE PROBABLY NEEDS TO BE A LITTLE BIT MORE NOTICE ON THAT.
YOU KNOW, SO JUST, JUST THINGS TO THINK ABOUT.
UM, AND, AND I THINK IF IT'S, YOU KNOW, CITY MANAGER REPORT ON THE STATUS OF WORKING ON THE BUDGET, FINE, THAT'S ENOUGH, RIGHT? UM, OR, YOU KNOW, UH, CHIEF, POLICE CHIEF TO DISCUSS, UH, YEAH, WHATEVER, SOMETHING, YOU KNOW, STAFFING OR I DON'T, YOU KNOW, WHATEVER, WHATEVER IT IS.
BUT, BUT, BUT BE JUST BE, BE WARY OF STAFF REPORT AND THEN IT GOING, UH, VERY, VERY INTO DETAIL.
ON THAT NOTICE, ONE OF THE PRACTICES THAT I'VE NOTICED THAT WE'VE BEEN DOING, LIKE ON OUR AGENDAS MM-HMM
IS SOMEBODY WILL POST AN AGENDA, BUT THERE'LL BE ABSOLUTELY NO SUPPORTING DOCUMENTATION WITH IT.
TO MEET THE NOTIFICATION DEADLINE, AND THEN SOMETIME THE FOLLOWING WEEK, SOMETIMES THE DAY BEFORE, SOMETIMES THE DATE OF THE MEETING, THE INDIVIDUAL THAT PUT THAT AGENDA OUT THERE WILL ALL OF A SUDDEN SHARE WHATEVER THE, UM, AND IT MAKES IT IMPOSSIBLE TO, TO READ IT, TO BECOME INFORMED.
WHAT IS THE NOTIFICATION REQUIREMENTS ON THE SUPPORTING DOCUMENTATION? NONE.
STATE LAW DOES NOT GOVERN, TALK ABOUT REQUIRE AGENDA PACKETS.
AGENDA PACKETS ARE PURELY A FUNCTION OF EACH INDIVIDUAL BODY.
NOW, YOU CAN ADOPT REQUIREMENTS, RULES, PASS AN ORDINANCE THAT SAYS AGENDA PACKETS MUST BE POSTED BY X, THEY MUST BE POSTED AT THE SAME TIME THAT, YOU KNOW, SO FORTH AND SO ON.
YOU CAN DO THAT, YOU HAVE THE AUTHORITY TO DO THAT, BUT TOMA DOES NOT ADDRESS AGENDA PACKETS OR ACCOMPANYING, UH, DOCUMENTATION AT ALL.
THERE IS NO LEGAL REQUIREMENT TO EVEN PROVIDE AN AGENDA PACKET.
CITIES DO IT TO PROVIDE TRANSPARENCY AND TO GIVE THE INFORMATION TO THE PUBLIC SO THEY KNOW KINDA WHAT'S GOING ON.
BUT UNDER A STATE LAW STANDPOINT, IT, IT, AGENDA PACKETS AREN'T EVEN REQUIRED.
SO, UM, SO IF YOU WANT, IF YOU WANT TO HAVE GUIDELINES AND RULES ABOUT WHAT GETS POSTED AND WHEN, FROM AN AGENDA PACKET STANDPOINT, THAT'S
[02:15:01]
SOMETHING THE CITY COUNCIL WOULD HAVE TO ADOPT A, A RULE ON.AS LONG AS IT'S ON THE AGENDA POSTED, THAT'S SUFFICIENT.
THAT'S THE ONLY THING STATE LAW COVERS IS THAT AGENDA ITEM.
WHAT IS THE NOTICE THAT, THAT THE, THAT IS PROVIDED TO THE PUBLIC ON THAT AGENDA ITEM? THAT'S IT, THAT'S ALL IT COVERS.
AND I, THAT ISSUE COME UP AND THEIR CASES ON IT, IT'S, IT'S AGENDA PACKETS HAVE NO, NO BEARING ON TOMA.
WHAT'S TOMA COMPLIANCE WHATSOEVER.
SO IF YOU WANNA DO IT, YOU, YOU MAY, BUT IT'S GOTTA COME FROM WITHIN.
UM, Y'ALL ARE ALSO, UM, YOU KNOW, PRETTY GOOD ABOUT, YOU KNOW, THE PUBLIC COMMENTS AND EXPRESSIONS OF, YOU KNOW, THE, THE, THESE, THESE, UH, PUBLIC ACT YEAH.
REPORTS, UM, YOU KNOW, ANNOUNCEMENTS INVOLVING, UM, YOU KNOW, UH, RECOGNITIONS AND AWARDS AND, AND ALL KIND.
UM, YOU KNOW, WE, WE DO HAVE TO BE CAREFUL DURING GENERAL PUBLIC COMMENT.
UM, AND Y'ALL, AGAIN, YOU KNOW, Y'ALL, YOU KNOW, PRETTY GOOD ABOUT IT, BUT WE DO HAVE TO BE CAREFUL, YOU KNOW, Y'ALL HAVE TO BE CAREFUL IN GENERAL, IF YOU, YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE PUBLIC COMMENT AND WITH GENERAL PUBLIC COMMENT, YOU HAVE TO BE WARY ABOUT ANY BACK AND FORTH WITH PEOPLE.
SOMETIMES PEOPLE WANT QUESTIONS, THEY WANT, THEY WANT ANSWERS TO THEIR QUESTIONS.
AND IF IT'S NOT AN AGENDIZED ITEM, THE ONLY RESPONSE ON SOMETHING THAT IS A, THAT IS A GENERAL PUBLIC COMMENT ARE, YOU KNOW, UH, FACTUAL TYPE CLARIFICATIONS, OR YOU CAN DIRECT STAT, YOU KNOW, HEY, I'M GONNA ASK THE CITY MANAGER TO FOLLOW UP ON THIS, OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT.
YOU CAN'T GET INTO SOME KIND OF SUBSTANTIVE BACK AND FORTH ON, ON THAT WHEN IT'S NOT AGENDIZED.
YOU CAN RESPOND BACK AND FORTH AT THE OPTION OF THE CHAIR ON AN AGENDIZED ITEM A LITTLE, YOU KNOW, MORE, UH, IF IT'S BEEN AGENDIZED.
BUT YOU HAVE TO BE CAREFUL BECAUSE MEMBERS OF THE PUBLIC OFTEN ASK QUESTIONS THAT ARE ANCILLARY TO THE ITEM THAT'S ON THE AGENDA.
AND SO YOU HAVE TO BE VERY CAREFUL ABOUT NOT GOING OFF ON THOSE RABBIT TRAILS BECAUSE ALL OF A SUDDEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THIS OTHER PROJECT THAT'S KIND OF RELATED TO THIS PROJECT, AND THEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT SOMETHING THAT'S NOT ON THE AGENDA.
SO YOU, YOU NEED TO, THE CHAIR WOULD NEED TO PUT A STOP TO THAT, RIGHT? YOU JUST CAN'T GO DOWN THAT ROAD BECAUSE IT'S NOT ON THE AGENDA.
I'M SORRY, IT'S, YEAH, I KNOW YOU THINK IT'S RELATED, BUT WE CAN'T TALK ABOUT THAT ISSUE TODAY WHERE THAT'S NOT ON THE AGENDA.
AND THAT'S FOR, YOU KNOW, THAT'S FOR, FOR YOUR AND THE CITY'S OWN PROTECTION BECAUSE, BECAUSE REMEMBER, VIOLATIONS OF TOMA BY INDIVIDUAL, YOU KNOW, ELECTED OFFICIALS OR APPOINTED OFFICIALS, CAN CARRY INDIVIDUAL CRIMINAL LIABILITY.
SO THAT'S WHY IT'S IMPORTANT FOR Y'ALL TO BE, YOU KNOW, WARY AND AWARE OF THOSE KINDS OF LIMITATIONS.
IN ADDITION TO ACT, IF ACTIONS TAKEN THAT'S NOT PROPERLY AGENDIZED, THEN THAT ACTION IS, UH, YOU KNOW, CAN BE VOIDED, RIGHT? UM, OKAY, GOTTA KEEP MINUTES.
I MEAN, THAT'S, WE, YOU, YOU, YOU GUYS DO A GOOD JOB OF THAT.
UM, UH, RECORDINGS, UM, CITY, THE CITY HAS, ITS, ITS, ITS, UM, RECORDINGS.
UH, YOU HAVE TO HAVE THE RETENTION SCHEDULE, UM, THE RECORDINGS IF MINUTES ARE TRANSCRIBED, THE RECORDINGS HAVE TO BE KEPT FOR 90 DAYS.
BUT NOWADAYS, I MEAN, THIS, THESE ARE FROM WHEN, YOU KNOW, BEFORE THE ADVENT OF STREAMING AND, YOU KNOW, YOUTUBE AND ALL THAT KIND OF STUFF.
IT'S ALMOST EVERYBODY KEEPS AN ARCHIVE OF THEIR, OF THEIR, UM, IF YOU RECORD YOUR MEETINGS AND YOU KNOW, YOU DO, AND SOME OF YOU YOU'RE REQUIRED TO, IF YOU'RE BIG ENOUGH, UM, QU HAS TO BE PRESENT.
A DA REQUIRES A MEETING TO BE HELD IN THE ROOM THAT'S PHYSICALLY ACCESSIBLE, AND YOU GUYS, IT IS, BUT JUST BEAR THAT IN MIND.
SOMETIMES COUNCILS, UH, HAVE MEETINGS AT OTHER LOCATIONS TO ACCOMMODATE BETTER CROWDS OR WHATEVER THE CASE MAY BE.
JUST IF YOU DO THAT, YOU JUST MAKE, YOU NEED TO MAKE SURE THAT IT'S ACCESSIBLE AND AADA A ACCESSIBLE, UM, MEMBERS OF THE PUBLIC HAVE A RIGHT TO RECORD.
NOW, WHAT THEY CAN'T DO IS THEY CAN'T COME AND KIND OF BLOCK THE DAIS OR MAKE A BIG SPECTACLE OR, YOU KNOW, THEY, THEY, THEY, YOU CAN, YOU CAN, WHAT CITY CITIES HAVE DONE IS THEY'VE SAID, OKAY, WELL, YOU CAN DO IT FROM YOUR SEAT, AND THAT'S KIND OF FINE.
YOU, YOU CAN'T OBSTRUCT OTHER PEOPLE'S VIEW.
OR YOU, IF YOU'RE HAVE A BIG CAMERA THEY USED, IT'S NOT AS COMMON ANYMORE.
BUT BACK IN THE OLD DAYS WHEN PEOPLE HAD TO BRING IN LIKE CAMERAS ON TRIPODS AND STUFF, AND BIG VCR TYPE THINGS, YOU KNOW, THEY HAD LIKE DESIGNATED AREAS LIKE TAPED OFF.
YOU DON'T SEE THAT ANYMORE BECAUSE EVERYBODY'S GOT A CELL PHONE NOW.
BUT YOU CAN SAY, YOU KNOW, YOU CAN'T, YOU CAN'T BLOCK PEOPLE.
YOU CAN'T MAKE A SPECTACLE OF IT.
YOU CAN'T, YOU KNOW, DISRUPT THE MEETING.
BUT, BUT YOU CAN'T ALSO CAN'T STOP
[02:20:01]
'EM FROM RECORDING THE OPEN MEETING.UH, PUBLIC HAS A RIGHT TO SPEAK EITHER BEFORE OR DURING THE GOVERNMENTAL BODY'S CONSIDERATION.
UM, AND, UH, THE ONLY THING IS LIKE, IF, IF THE INDIVIDUAL NEEDS A TRANSLATOR AND THERE THAT'S AVAILABLE, YOU SHOULD ACCOMMODATE TIME FOR, BECAUSE TRANSLATION JUST TAKES LONGER.
UM, I DON'T, THAT DOESN'T HAPPEN OFTEN, BUT OCCASIONALLY IT DOES.
UM, THE, THE RULE, THE RULES RELATED TO HOW LONG A SPEAKER IS ALLOWED TO SPEAK SHOULD BE SOMEWHAT FLEXIBLE.
HOWEVER, UM, AT THE END OF THE DAY, THE, AS LONG AS YOU'VE COMPLIED WITH THE, UM, THE STATE LAW REQUIREMENT THAT YOU'VE ALLOWED PEOPLE TO SPEAK ON AN AGENDA ITEM, UM, THE LAW DOESN'T SAY, YOU KNOW, HEY, I, YOU'VE GIVEN THEM THREE MINUTES, I'M ENTITLED TO 10.
NOW YOU CAN, YOU CAN SET THOSE LIMITS.
THERE'S NOT, THE LAW DOESN'T GO DOWN THAT, THAT FAR TO BE THAT SPECIFIC.
OKAY? UM, AND THAT'S, UM, AND AGAIN, SOME CITIES ALLOW, UH, YOU GUYS DO, AND IT'S PERMISSIBLE TO ALLOW, FOR EXAMPLE, UH, PEOPLE TO DONATE MINUTES.
I, I SEE THAT HAPPEN HERE ALL THE TIME.
SOME CITIES SAY, NO, YOU CAN'T DO THAT.
THOSE ARE, YOU KNOW, THOSE ARE ALL, THOSE TYPES OF THINGS ARE DISCRETIONARY.
IT'S, IT'S UP TO Y ALL WHATEVER YOU WANT TO DO.
WHO SETS THE, UH, THE, UH, TIME AS IT, THE CHAIRPERSON? OR IS, IS THAT A CITY IN, UH, IT, IT, IT CAN BE, IT CAN BE SET BY COUNCIL AND THERE ARE RULES OF PROCEDURE.
UM, OR IT CAN, IF IT'S NOT SPECIFIED IN THE RULES OF PROCEDURE, THEN IT'S THE CHAIR OF THE RESPECTIVE BODY WHO CAN DO THAT.
NOW, YOU KNOW, AGAIN, UNDER, UH, THE CITY HAS, HAS ADOPTED RULES, UH, PROCEDURE, AND THEN AS KIND OF THE, THE, THE, THE FALLBACK OR THE, THE BACKGROUND FOR THAT ROSENBERG'S RULES OF ORDER, UH, WHICH ARE NOT AS, UM, DETAILED NEARLY AS ROBERT'S RULES OF ORDER.
BUT WHAT ROSENBERG PROVIDES THE IDEA IS THAT IT'S SUPPOSED TO ALLOW FOR A MORE EXPEDITIOUS AND AND EFFICIENT MEETING, BUT WITHIN THAT, THAT CONSTRAINT, EVEN, EVEN IF THE CITY COUNCIL, EVEN IF THERE'S A RULE IN THE RULES OF ORDER THAT SAY THREE MINUTES, THE RULES PER, THEY CONTEMPLATE THAT YOU CAN WAIVE OR GIVE MORE TIME.
AND THAT'S A PROCESS WHERE, YOU KNOW, YOU KNOW, POINT, POINT, UH, I GUESS POINT OF ORDER OR MOTION.
I, I'D HAVE TO GO LOOK AND LOOK AT WHAT THE PROPER TERMINOLOGY WOULD BE.
BUT, BUT IF A, IF, IF, IF A MAJORITY OF THE BODY WANTS TO ALLOW SOMEONE TO CONTINUE SPEAKING, THEY CAN OVERRULE THE CHAIR.
IF YOU GO THROUGH THAT PROCESS AND YOU TAKE A VOTE AND EVERYBODY SAYS, YEAH, I WANNA GIVE THEM 10 MINUTES, WHATEVER, YOU CAN DO THAT PROCESS.
I, I LIKE TO AVOID GETTING OVERLY TECHNICAL ABOUT THAT BECAUSE, UM, I THINK THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IS, I MEAN, WE'RE THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IS RIGHT, PUBLIC PARTICIPATION, REASONABLE PARTICIPATION.
AND AS LONG AS THE, AS LONG AS THIS IS ADVANCING THE DISCUSSION, I, I THINK IT PROBABLY BEHOOVES YOU TO LET IT HAPPEN.
IF IT'S REPETITIVE OR IT BECOMES CONFRONTATIONAL OR IT BECOMES UNPRODUCTIVE, THEN THAT'S WHEN A CHAIR, I THINK CAN STEP IN AND SHOULD STEP IN TO, TO, YOU KNOW, LIMIT IT.
UM, BUT HIGHLY TECHNICAL, YOU KNOW, I'M NOT GONNA LET YOU SPEAK FOR THREE MINUTES AND 10 SECONDS BECAUSE IT SAYS THREE MINUTES YOU'RE SETTING UP FIGHTS THAT I DON'T KNOW THAT THE CITY, BUT AGAIN, POLICY INSTEAD TALKING, YOU CAN CUT IT SHORT.
NO, NOT, I, I MEAN, I DON'T, I THINK ONCE YOU'VE ESTABLISHED, I THINK ONCE YOU'VE ESTABLISHED A MINIMUM, YOU NEED TO LET, YOU NEED TO, THE ONLY WAY YOU CAN CUT IT SHORT IS IF IT BECOMES, UM, IF IT, IF IT RISES TO THE LEVEL OF LIKE, YOU KNOW, UH, DISORDERLY CONDUCT, YOU KNOW, FIGHTING WORDS OR WHATEVER, THEN OKAY, YOU KNOW, I MEAN, THEN, BUT, BUT OTHERWISE THE LAW SPECIFICALLY PROHIBITS COUNCILS OR GOVERNING GOVERNMENTAL BODIES FROM PROHIBITING SOMEONE FROM SPEAKING JUST 'CAUSE YOU DON'T LIKE WHAT THEY'RE SAYING, THEY'RE BEING CRITICAL OF YOU.
THEY'RE, THEY'RE, YOU KNOW, YOU GUYS MADE TERRIBLE DECISIONS.
YOU DON'T, YOU GOTTA LISTEN TO IT.
YOU DON'T LIKE IT, DON'T VOLUNTEER FOR POLITICS, YOU KNOW, I MEAN, YOU HAVE TO, YOU HAVE TO ALLOW THAT TO GO FORWARD.
IT'S ONLY WHEN IT RISES TO THE LEVEL OF REALLY WHAT AMOUNTS TO DISORDERLY CONDUCT, THEN STEP IN AND STOP PEOPLE AND EVERYTHING LIKE THAT.
BUT IF IT'S SHORT OF THAT, YOU'RE ON THE RISK OF GETTING A LAWSUIT.
UM, AND THERE THE GOVERNMENTAL BODY MAY NOT PROHIBIT
[02:25:01]
PUBLIC CRITICISM OF THE GOVERNMENTAL BODY, UH, UNLESS, YOU KNOW, AGAIN, YEAH, IT'S GOTTA BE, IT'S GOTTA RISE TO THE LEVEL OF CRIMINAL CONDUCT.UH, IF, IF YOU ALLOW QUESTIONS ABOUT ITEMS NOT ON THE AGENDA, AGAIN, WE TALKED, WE COVERED THIS STATEMENT OF FACTS, STATEMENT OF POLICY, AND A PROPOSAL TO PLACE THE ITEM ON THE FUTURE AGENDA.
THAT THAT'S REALLY ALL YOU CAN DO.
IF IT'S NOT ON THE AGENDA AND YOU GET QUESTIONS ABOUT IT, UH, CLOSED MEETINGS, UM, AGAIN, I MEAN, IT HAS TO BE THE, THE PURPOSES HAVE TO BE SET FORTH OR ANNOUNCED.
YOU, YOU, YOU GUYS HAVE IN YOUR, YOUR, YOUR GENERAL AGENDA.
CITY COUNCIL RESERVES THE RIGHT TO RE YOU KNOW, RETIRE EXECUTIVE SESSION, TO RESERVE RECEIVE ATTORNEY-CLIENT COMMUNICATION OR ADVICE ON ANY ITEM.
SO YOU, YOU, YOU CAN DO THAT HAS TO BE ACTUAL LEGAL ADVICE BACK AND FORTH.
IT CAN'T BE POLICY DISCUSSION.
UM, UH, OR THE ITEMS ARE, YOU KNOW, HAVE TO BE THE, OTHERWISE THE EXCEPTIONS HAVE TO BE SPECIFICALLY IDENTIFIED.
IT'S PERSONNEL, IT'S ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT, IT'S, YOU KNOW, WHATEVER.
WE HAVE TO IDENTIFY THEM IN THE AGENDA IF WE'RE GONNA, IF WE'RE GONNA USE THEM.
OTHERWISE, THE ONLY ONE THAT YOU CAN GO BACK FOR GENERALLY IS TO RECEIVE LEGAL ADVICE.
BUT AGAIN, IT HAS TO BE LEGAL ADVICE.
SITTING MEMBERS OF COUNCIL MAY REVIEW A CERTIFIED AGENDA RECORDING.
YOU GUYS HAVE CERTIFIED AGENDAS.
UM, THE PUBLIC ALWAYS SEEMS TO THINK THAT THESE ARE, YOU KNOW, LIKE CONTAIN THE STATE SECRETS.
AND THEY'RE ALWAYS VERY, VERY DISAPPOINTED ON THOSE RARE OCCASIONS WHEN THEY'VE SEEN THEM, BECAUSE THOSE ARE ONLY RELEASE OTHERWISE, EXCEPT FOR CITY, CITY COUNCIL MEMBERS.
THOSE ARE ALL OTHERWISE ONLY RELEASABLE BY COURT ORDER.
THAT'S IN TOMA, HAD THAT LITIGATION, THEY'VE GOTTEN THEM, AND THEY'RE LIKE, HOW
BUT, BUT IF FOR SOME REASON YOU WEREN'T AT A MEETING AT A, YOU WERE ABSENT AND YOU WANTED TO LOOK AT AN AGENDA CERTIFIED AGENDA, YOU COULD, BUT BECAUSE THEY'RE SEALED, WE'D WANT, YOU KNOW, WE'D HAVE, WE'D HAVE TO EXPLAIN, WE'D HAVE TO PUT, YOU KNOW, OPENED ON SUCH AND SUCH A DATE BY SO AND SO COUNCIL MEMBER TO REVIEW AND THEN TAPE IT OR WHATEVER, YOU KNOW, 'CAUSE THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO BE SEALED.
UM, THIS IS ANOTHER QUESTION THAT COMES UP.
WHO CAN ATTEND EXECUTIVE SESSIONS? YOU, YOU CAN INCLUDE EMPLOYEE, YOU KNOW, CITY EMPLOYEES.
YOU CAN INCLUDE, UM, UM, YOU KNOW, OBVIOUSLY YOUR, YOUR, YOUR, YOUR ATTORNEY OR YOUR OUTSIDE COUNSEL AND THAT KINDA STUFF.
WHAT YOU CANNOT DO IS YOU CANNOT IN, IN, AND BRING BACK INTO CLOSED SESSION THIRD PARTIES WHO ARE NOT WITHIN THE CITY SOMEHOW, EITHER THEIR AGENTS OR REPRESENTATIVES.
UH, FOR EXAMPLE, IF HAD QUESTIONS, WELL, WE WANNA BRING BACK THE, THIS PROVIDER WHO WANTS TO DO AN RFQ AND THEY WANT TO TELL US THIS INFORMATION THAT'S ILLEGAL.
THAT'S A CLOSED, THAT'S A, THAT'S A CLOSED MEETING.
AN ILLEGAL CLOSED MEETING BECAUSE YOU'RE SELECTIVELY ALLOWING CERTAIN MEMBERS OF THE PUBLIC TO, TO OBSERVE PUBLIC BUSINESS AND NOT EVERYBODY.
UM, REAL PROPERTY DELIBERATIONS, PERSONNEL MATTERS.
UM, SECURITY DEVICES OR AUDIT ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AND CONSULTATION WITH ATTORNEY.
THOSE ARE WHAT'S, YOU KNOW, THOSE ARE THE MOST COMMON.
BUT AGAIN, GENERAL DISCUSSION OF POLICY IS NOT PERMITTED.
VOTING OR POLLING IS NOT PERMITTED.
NOW, STATEMENTS OF POSITION BY EITHER MEMBERS OF THE BODY OR, YOU KNOW, IF IT'S A, IT'S A COMMISSION.
IT IS THE CITY COUNCIL, UM, YOU, THAT IS PERMISSIBLE.
AND THERE'S SPECIFIC CASES THAT SAY, I FEEL THIS WAY ABOUT THIS ITEM.
BUT GETTING OKAY, YOU'RE GONNA VOTE YES, YOU'RE GONNA VOTE NO.
NOW, WE GO OUT THAT, THAT'S POLLING, THAT'S NOT PERMISSIBLE, BUT IT IS PERMISSIBLE TO STATE YOUR POSITION WITHIN THAT CONTEXT ON AN ITEM IN THAT, YOU KNOW, IN THAT CONTEXT.
SO IT'S A LITTLE, YOU KNOW, BE, BE CIRCUMSPECT IS THE BEST I CAN TELL YOU.
YOU KNOW, UM, DON'T POLL, DON'T, DON'T ASK PEOPLE TO COMMIT TO VOTES 'CAUSE IT'S NOT ENFORCEABLE ANYWAY.
UH, THAT'S POLLING, THAT'S NOT PERMISSIBLE.
UM, BUT SAYING, BUT, BUT IF YOU ARE A MEMBER AND YOU'RE IN THERE, YOU'RE SAYING, YOU KNOW, I DISAGREE WITH THIS.
I DON'T SUPPORT THIS BECAUSE OF X, Y, AND Z AND I THINK IT'S ILLEGAL, AND, YOU KNOW, WHATEVER, THAT'S OKAY.
AND THERE'S CASES THAT HOLD THAT.
BUT JUST, AGAIN, YOU GO TOO FAR DOWN THAT ROAD, THEN ALL OF A SUDDEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT POLICY AND THAT NEEDS TO BE DONE AND OPEN.
SO JUST, YOU KNOW, BE CAREFUL WITH, WITH HOW FAR YOU GO DOWN THAT ROAD.
IF YOU'RE IN EXECUTIVE SESSION ACTS PROVIDES FOR CIVIL REMEDIES AND CRIMINAL PENALTIES, AND THAT'S WHERE IT, YOU KNOW, COMES IN.
UM, THAT'S WHERE, YOU KNOW, YOUR INDIVIDUAL LIABILITY CAN
[02:30:01]
GET, UM, IN, UH, IMPLICATED.UH, THE CRIMINAL PENALTIES ARE AGAINST THE INDIVIDUALS.
THE CIVIL REMEDIES ARE AGAINST.
UH, REALLY THE CITY, UH, ACTIONS TAKEN IN VIOLATION OF THE ACT ARE VOIDABLE.
AND ANY INTERESTED CITIZEN CAN BRING A CIVIL LAWSUIT TO FORCE OFFICIALS TO COMPLY WITH THE ACT, TO ENJOIN THEM FROM ACTING OR TO VOID ACTIONS TAKEN IN ANY LEGAL MEETING.
TOMA STANDING IS, IS IS THE BROADEST, IF I'M A CITIZEN OF THE CITY, I CAN BRING A TOOMA LAWSUIT AGAINST THE CITY.
WELL, IT MAY BE BEYOND THAT, BUT AT LEAST CITIZENS OF THE CITY.
I MEAN, A MEMBER OF THE MEDIA WHO'S NOT A CITIZEN COULD BRING A LAWSUIT.
UM, YOU HAVE TO KNOWINGLY VIOLATE.
THAT'S WHERE, YOU KNOW, THE, THE, THE WALKING QUORUM IS THE BIGGEST DANGER FOR, FOR VIOLATIONS.
UM, IF YOU, IF YOU KNOW THAT YOU'VE JUST RECEIVED AN EMAIL FROM, YOU KNOW, TWO OTHER MEMBERS OF THE BODY REGARDING PUBLIC BUSINESS, AND YOU WERE THE THIRD PERSON TO GET IT, AND YOU, YOU GO TO, AND YOU'VE TALKED, YOU SEE THE FOURTH MEMBER AND AT THE COFFEE SHOP, AND YOU GO, HEY, I GOT THIS MEMBER, I GOT THIS EMAIL FROM, YOU KNOW, MEMBERS A AND B, AND I DON'T KNOW WHAT I THINK ABOUT IT.
WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT IT? WALKING QUORUM? YOU, YOU, YOU'RE ALL, YOU KNOW, YOU, YOU, THE PERSON WHO'S ASKING THE QUESTION ARE DEFINITELY ON THE HOOK.
THE PERSON WHO'S RECEIVING THE QUESTION, IF THEY DO ANYTHING OTHER THAN BE QUIET AND WALK AWAY
YOU GUYS GET YOURSELVES IN TROUBLE.
UM, SO AGAIN, I MEAN, THIS GOES, YOU KNOW, INTO WHAT IS A DELIBERATION, WHAT IS A QUORUM? HOW DOES THAT, UH, HOW DOES THAT PLAY OUT? THAT'S WHAT I JUST, YOU EXPLAINED TO YOU, UH, ANY VERBAL OR WRITTEN EXCHANGE REGARDING PUBLIC BUSINESS, ANY ISSUE WITHIN THE JURISDICTION OF THE GOVERNING BODY.
SO I, BUT I WOULD SAY DON'T READ THAT TOO, FINALLY.
'CAUSE IF YOU'RE A P AND Z AND YOU'RE SAYING, OH, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT BOA STUFF, NAH,
I DON'T THINK I, I THINK YOU'RE IN TROUBLE IF YOU DO THAT.
I THINK IT'S ANYTHING CONCERNING PUBLIC BUSINESS OF THE CITY,
DO WE HAVE ANY MORE? THIS JOB? HUH? THIS JOB? YEAH, MAN.
YOU KNOW WHY SIGNED UP FOR THIS? IS THAT WHAT Y'ALL THREW? COUNCIL, COMMISSIONERS, BOARD MEMBERS.
ANY QUESTIONS, CONCERNS, COMMENTS? IF I'M HEARING NONE, I'M INCLINED TO END THIS LAST CHANCE.
THE ONLY THING I'LL ADD AGAIN IS, UM, I THINK IF CHARLES, I THINK YOU, I GUESS YOU GUYS HAVE THE, ALL OF THE POWERPOINTS, IF ANYBODY WANTS THEM, CHARLES, YOU KNOW, OR I CAN SEND 'EM WHATEVER Y'ALL WANT, WHATEVER'S EASIEST.
UM, THESE ARE, YEAH, I'M HAPPY TO FORWARD THEM, FORWARD THEM TO EVERYONE.
AND IF, IF ANYBODY HAS ANY SPECIFIC QUESTIONS, YOU KNOW, UH, REACH OUT.
AND, UH, ONE OF OUR COMMISSION MEMBERS JUST WANNA SEND OUR THOUGHTS AND PRAYERS TO MS. LINDA AIR.
HER DOG PASSED AWAY TODAY UNEXPECTEDLY, AND THAT'S WHY SHE WASN'T ABLE TO BE HERE.
UH, THE TIME IS 8 34 AND WE WILL ADJOURN THIS JOINT WORKSHOP.